Talk:Liberal conservatism

editorializing moved from article Intangible 20:49, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

At the 2006 Conservative Party Conference in Bournemouth, England, party leader David Cameron emphasised his credentials as a Liberal Conservative and stated that he was "not a neo-conservative". Indeed the term "liberal conservatism" is likely to be used in contrast with social conservatism.

Japan's LDP

None of Europe's liberal conservative parties deny Nazi Germany and Japan war crimes in World War II. (In the case of war crimes in Italy, it is not comparable to Germany and Japan.) Mureungdowon (talk) 05:18, 25 April 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

In the 2020s, the LDP has never been described as a liberal. Kishida's portrayal of a liberal is in a similar vein to Mitt Romney's portrayal of a liberal. It has a relative meaning, and it is difficult to find a source that describes the LDP as a liberal conservative among the sources in the last 10 years. Fumio Kishida has been trying to remove monuments of Korean wartime sexual violence victims of Japanese war crimes. Most South Koreans think Fumio Kishida is more right-wing than Donald Trump or Vladimir Putin. Mureungdowon (talk) 05:23, 25 April 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

Holocaust denial is what Jews call the far right. Japanese war crime denial is what South Koreans call the far right. Mureungdowon (talk) 05:26, 25 April 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

Kishida glorifies war crimes in the Japanese Empire. Trump and Putin are not Nazis. If Kishida is a centre-right liberal, Trump is a progressive. Trump is a supporter of the Sunshine Policy. Rather, by South Korean standards, Trump is a moderate conservative and Kishida is a far-right. Western media is hypocritical. They call Donald Trump a fascist, but they don't admit that all LDP politicians are fascists. By South Korean standards, Donald Trump is a liberal and Fumio Kishida is a fascist. The English Wikipedia classifies Donald Trump as a fascist. Therefore, the LDP should not be classified as a liberal-conservative. Mureungdowon (talk) 05:33, 25 April 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

Donald Trump does not deny the Holocaust. Fumio Kishida denies genocide and sexual slavery crimes. Trump is by no means far-right. But Kishida is far-right. Mureungdowon (talk) 05:50, 25 April 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

Denying the Holocaust in Germany is considered a far right. So why do some people call the LDP liberal? It was removed by a Japanese editor. Even in Japan, the LDP is not viewed as a liberal-conservative party. Mureungdowon (talk) 05:39, 25 April 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

The LDPJ has liberal-conservative and even liberal factions, thus it can be listed here. --Checco (talk) 05:55, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

The source was before Shinzo Abe began his second term. There are no more liberals in the LDP since Shinzo Abe. The LDP may have been a liberal conservative in 2011, but that doesn't mean it's a liberal conservative in 2023. Mureungdowon (talk) 06:02, 25 April 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

I refer you to WP:Soapbox. Anyway, I support inclusion of the LDPJ on the list of parties for the article, as it is backed up with two reliable sources, and the section is after all inclusive for “parties with liberal-conservative factions”.-- Autospark (talk) 07:46, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

There are no liberal conservative factions in the LDP. Kōchikai is a moderate, not liberal. Although Kishida is sometimes described as a liberal, but he is far from ordinary liberals, including trying to amend Article 9 of the Japanese Constitution. What elements of the LDP are liberal? If LDPJ should be included in the Liberal conservatism article, Brothers of Italy should be included in the Liberal conservatism article. Mureungdowon (talk) 08:02, 25 April 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

If the LDPJ should be added to the 'Liberal conservatism' article, Turkey's Justice and Development Party (AKP) should also be included in the 'Liberal conservatism' article. Although the AKP supports historical revisionism on the Armenian genocide issue, unlike the LDP, it does not support Nazism or Japanese fascism. Mureungdowon (talk) 08:16, 25 April 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

Again, WP:Soapbox. And are we discussing the inclusion of the Liberal Democratic Party of Japan or another party? It is hard to view you as conversing in good faith if you frequently jump into whataboutism.-- Autospark (talk) 08:21, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

We need the latest source that the LDP is a liberal-conservative party. Is there even one source that the LDP is a liberal-conservative party within 5 years? Mureungdowon (talk) 08:30, 25 April 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

If the LDPJ takes power in Japan, it will be difficult for South Koreans to even demand legitimate compensation from Japan, and even demand compensation will cause great damage to South Korea through economic sanctions. In addition, they have used their national power to effectively remove sexual slavery and forced labor victims' memorial symbols that exist around the world. Under the LDPJ, many Koreans suffer from extreme discrimination and violence in Japan. How the hell is this liberal-conservative? Are there any other parties in German politics that have this position besides the Alternative for Germany???? You would describe this as whataboutism, but before 1945 Japan was the Axis Powers and Fascists like Germany.

Why did a (anti-Chins/anti-LGBT/anti-feminist) K-Trumpist (=Yoon Suk-yeol) who supports Pro-Japanesediplomatic lines come to power in South Korea? The reason was that when a liberal against Japanese imperialism came to power in South Korea, demanded fair compensation for the victims of World War II. Shinzo Abe then hit the South Korean economy hard due to the Japan-South Korea trade dispute. This caused negative emotions against liberals among the South Korean people. South Korean far-rightists like K-Trumpist and Unification Church are effectively political allies with the LDPJ.

Japan's LDPJ government prevented South Korea's Anti-'Japanese fascist' liberal regime from taking power again in the 2022 South Korean presidential election. Analysts say that the relationship between Yoon Suk-yeol and Japan in South Korea is similar to that between Donald Trump and Russia in the United States. If the LDP is liberal-conservative, then the United Russia is progressive. Yoon is more far-right than Trump. Mureungdowon (talk) 08:54, 25 April 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

Again, WP:Soapbox. And there’s no rule that references need to be <5 years old for extant political parties.- - Autospark (talk) 10:53, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

But over time, political positions and ideologies of political parties can change. Even data from 10 years ago (2013~) does not portray the LDP as a liberal-conservative. The LDP before Abe and the LDP after Abe are completely different parties. Mureungdowon (talk) 11:14, 25 April 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

This is a pointless exercise because there are no clear definitions for liberal conservative, conservative liberal or factions. Basically, the list could be expanded to include any centrist or right of center party.

While I appreciate your comments on the current leadership, the party has is not monolithic so it's possible there are at least two liberal members who support each other in party meetings. TFD (talk) 11:15, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

I'm also well aware of the unsavoury issues related to the LDP and historical revisionism, but this is meant to be a list of political parties which have references describing them as part of the liberal-conservative tradition, it's not meant to describe any of the parties on there in any detail, nor allowing editors to vent (and again WP:Soapbox, WP:NOTABLOG). The information on the revisionism expressed by members of the LDP should be kept within the article about the LDP, and/or on a separate article about the issues raised.-- Autospark (talk) 14:23, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

The section is called Liberal-conservative parties or parties with liberal-conservative factions. So the party itself does not have to be part of the tradition. In any case, it makes no sense to refer to the tradition, since it isn't defined. Is it liberalism that emphasises elitism, social tradition or small government, Toryism that accepts some liberal views such as private property and the rule of law, or all of the above? TFD (talk) 15:49, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

I agree with the TFD. The LDP has few liberal elements. LDPs should be removed from the list quickly. Mureungdowon (talk) 19:34, 26 April 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

Actually, I agree that, as "the section is called 'Liberal-conservative parties or parties with liberal-conservative factions'", a "party itself does not have to be part of the tradition" to be listed. --Checco (talk) 20:30, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

However, please do not remove footnotes. That is my compromise. I'm grateful you guys didn't remove footnotes. (Liberal conservatives may exist in a very small number among the main members of the LDP, but they are by no means the mainstream of the LDP. Fumio Kishida is hardly a liberal conservatives.) Mureungdowon (talk) 01:31, 30 April 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

I cannot find anything on this in books about comparative politics. Usually they are about European parties and sometimes include U.S., Canadian, Australian and NZ parties. So we don't have any reliable sources to classify the LDP or its factions.

The U.S. government only accepted Christian Democratic, liberal and social democratic parties in the defeated axis nations, so the LDP was founded as a continuation of the pre-war Liberal Party and was technically committed to liberalism and democracy. But whether not they actually were is something we need sources for before their inclusion. TFD (talk) 01:51, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

One thing is for sure, even Donald Trump, the far-right by American standards, does not glorify the Axis powers. However, almost every politician in the LDP defends the Japanese Empire, which was part of the Axis powers. Therefore, for South Koreans, 'Japanese moderate' Fumio Kishida is more neo-fascistic than 'American far-right' Donald Trump. (I don't think Fumio Kishida is a moderate, and I don't think Donald Trump is a far-right. I rather think Kishida is the far-right and Trump is the moderate.) Mureungdowon (talk) 02:14, 30 April 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

All the parties with liberal-conservative factions should be included there, at least as long as we want to have a list. --Checco (talk) 15:24, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

So do you also support United Russia being added to the list? Mureungdowon (talk) 19:35, 26 April 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

As long as there is a list with the current name, any party including liberal-conservative factions (according to sources!) should be included. --Checco (talk) 20:30, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

The first source has no page reference, the second refers to a party created by the defection of liberal conservative members of the LDP and the others say that the LDP was once described as liberal conservative but no longer is.

I don't think anyway that having someone sometime saying in passing that two or more members of the LDP were liberal conservative or conservative liberal without providing any definitions is encyclopedic. TFD (talk) 21:02, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

It is easy to find sources online on LDP's liberal conservatism or liberal-conservative factions. --Checco (talk) 21:26, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Then go and find one and put it in. TFD (talk) 23:14, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Some were already there, others were fixed and/or added by User:Autospark, whom I thank for his contribution. --Checco (talk) 19:21, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

None of the issues with the sources have been addressed and I suggest we remove them.

The source added indeed calls the LDP liberal conservative, but it was published in 2010 and another source used says that the party stopped being liberal conservative after 2012.

I assume that you had not read the sources before another editor asked for the party to be removed. What makes you think they are liberal conservative and what does that mean to you?

TFD (talk) 20:48, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

I support the opinion of the TFD. The LDPJ must be removed from the list of liberal conservatism#Current parties articles. Mureungdowon (talk) 23:45, 3 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

In common sense, it is wrong to regard a party that defends the Japanese Empire, which was morally the same Axis as Nazi Germany, and glorifies war crimes as liberal-conservative. LDPJ hasn't been on the liberal conservative politocal parties list for a long time. Mureungdowon (talk) 00:24, 4 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

I agree with you but for a different reason. Since the term itself has no clear meaning, it makes no sense to provide a list. However you make a good point that the party has moved from the mainstream to the extreme right, so it would no longer be categorized as liberal or conservative or some sort of hybrid. TFD (talk) 03:57, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

The list should be kept – articles on political ideologies ranging from national conservatism to social liberalism to many others in between have lists of applicable parties listed in their articles. Again, it the section is called "Liberal-conservative parties or parties with liberal-conservative factions", factions within a party of a possible other "main ideology" therefore are valid, and there is no "time limit" for the age of references. As noted, there are defunct parties listed in the article section, which could have older references available. Also, again, it is a list, and should not be editorialised – information on controversies related to a political party should be on separate articles, and backed up by clear references as to avoid editors pushing WP:synth.-- Autospark (talk) 08:55, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

I changed the "Liberal-conservative parties or parties with liberal-conservative factions" session to the "List of liberal-conservative parties" session. As I keep saying, there is no 'consensus' between users about LDPJ being added to the list. Therefore, the description should be fixed with LDPJ not on the list for a long time. Mureungdowon (talk) 10:06, 4 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

You have no consensus behind renaming that section, and you are now engaging in disruptive editing. Please cease.— Autospark (talk) 10:10, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

LDPJ hasn't been on the list for more than a few years and no objection to it has been raised for a long time, but there is an editorial war going on by you adding LDPJ from the list without any 'consensus' about it. LDPJ should never be added until 'consensus' is done on the Talk page. In the first place, it is you, not me, who is opposed to maintaining the status quo. Mureungdowon (talk) 10:14, 4 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

The party was listed for a considerable amount of time, and is now backed with additional references. You are the one WP:EW and pushing a WP:soapbox take in an article where it isn’t warranted. Write about the LDPJ’s controversial takes on WWII on the article about that party, or create a separate article. This is a list within an article about a specific poltical ideology.— Autospark (talk) 10:18, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Give a source that the LDPJ of late is a liberal-conservative. Sources more than 10 years old do not represent the current LDP. The ideology of a particular party is not fixed. TFD as well as me are against adding LDPJ to the list. (And how does it become a Korean nationalist view that the LDPJ is far-right in defending the Japanese Empire, which is on par with Nazi Germany?) Mureungdowon (talk) 10:23, 4 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

I don't understand at all why Autospark is obsessed with adding LDPJ to the list of Liberal conservatism articles. I have my own reasons. South Koreans are the main victims of Japanese war crimes. And I support the status quo. By describing LDPJ in 2023 as a liberal, what's good for Wikipedia readers? Mureungdowon (talk) 10:20, 4 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

You are engaged in blatant trolling and are not contributing in good faith. It’s not about the Japanese LDP, it’s about creating a list of parties with "Liberal-conservative parties or parties with liberal-conservative factions". There are references for the LDP, therefore it goes on the list. Ideology articles should offer a list of parties with such ideologies, backed up by reliable sources. I see you have retroactively renamed the “Liberal-conservative parties or parties with liberal-conservative factions" section purely to attempt to push your own agenda, without consensus.— Autospark (talk) 10:35, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

It's not that I'm trolling, it's that you're obsessive obsessed. I've also searched countless times for data describing LDPJ as a liberal conservative. Unfortunately, no source has been found to describe the LDPJ as a liberal conservative since 2012, when Shinzo Abe came to power. What the hell does "consensus" you claim mean? Currently, two of the four users who participated in Talk, including myself, oppose adding LDPJ. Currently, there is no suitable "consensus". Therefore, it is necessary to maintain the status quo without adding LDPJ. Mureungdowon (talk) 10:40, 4 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

Again, trolling, insults, disruptive editing, not contributing in good faith. You rely on WP:NOPA ad hominem attacks and slurs rather than engaging with the issues at hand. I have been contributing to en.wiki for over a decade and a half and there has never been a rule that references for categorising political parties have a time limit of eleven years – that is a ‘rule’ you seem to have unilaterally have created in order to push your WP:soapbox editorialising of a list section.— Autospark (talk) 10:46, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

You accused my view by calling it a 'Korean nationalist' view. It's you who do disruptive editing and insults. (See Wikipedia:No personal attacks) Nippon Ishin no Kai, who is more policy moderate than the LDPJ by current standards, is never described as a liberal-conservative. If the LDPJ is a liberal-conservative, the more moderate Nippon Ishin no Kai should have a source that is described as a liberal-conservative. Mureungdowon (talk) 10:52, 4 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

Real Korean nationalists believe that the LDPJ was a fascist party from the beginning due to the influence of Nobusuke Kishi and others. On the other hand, I acknowledge that the LDPJ had at least a small number of liberal conservatives within the LDPJ until Shinzo Abe came to power, and even I think that the LDPJ was really a liberal party in the 1980s. The LDPJ has not ruled liberal-conservative since 2012. Currently, the LDPJ suppresses Asahi newspapers, supports nationalist education, and has a strong social conservative element. You're just making an argument based on racial prejudice that my views are biased because I'm a South Korean. Mureungdowon (talk) 10:46, 4 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

WP:Soapbox. Autospark (talk) 10:46, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Is there an up-to-date source that LDPJ is a liberal-conservative? The ideology of a particular political party should be judged by the current standards. Mureungdowon (talk) 10:49, 4 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

There is no “time limit” to the age of references used for political parties. That is a rule you’ve unilaterally created in order to be disruptive and push editorialising of a list. The issue isn’t the controversy related to the LDP, it’s that is isn’t appropriate to bring it up on a list – add it to the specific article on the party or create a separate en.wiki article for the issue of historical revisionism and the LDP (the topic likely merits an article of its own). (Additionally, please rename the section back to "Liberal-conservative parties or parties with liberal-conservative factions", as was its name.)— Autospark (talk) 10:55, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

I support changing the name of the session, but I kept the name of the session as it is because I don't want to cause an editorial dispute with you. Instead, you should also keep the status quo without adding LDPJ from the list of articles. Let's keep the status quo until other users participate. Mureungdowon (talk) 10:58, 4 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

There is no "time limit" in the source used for a particular party, but shouldn't the ideology of a particular party focus more on the current standards, not the past? The ideology of a particular political party is often changed. Then it is not worth ignoring such changes and insisting on regressive old sources. For example, we do not describe Austria's FPO as a liberal party as a 'Current party'. Mureungdowon (talk) 11:07, 4 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

Austria's FPO and Japan's LDPJ used to be liberal parties, but now they are not even liberal-conservative parties, they are simply national conservatives. Mureungdowon (talk) 11:08, 4 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

Do you have any sources which explicitly claim the LDP no longer has liberal-conservative (or conservative-liberal) currents or factions, or are you relying on WP:Synth? It’s not as if the LDP has moved away from being the conservative party it was founded as – the example you cited in your original response before you revised it (a centre-left party shifting to centre-right) would be relevant to a party e.g. the Democratic Party (Romania) where a significant shift in official organised ideology occurred.— Autospark (talk) 11:09, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

I'll look for more sources about that. However, ordinary liberal-conservative parties are not generally described as "illiberal" or "ultra-nationalist". "Illiberal" or "ultra-nationalist" and "liberal-conservative" are completely contradictory. Mureungdowon (talk) 11:17, 4 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

I'll ask the other way around. Is it really the mainstream view that the LDPJ is a liberal-conservative? In Wikipedia, the views of the majority take precedence over the views of the few. It is questionable whether it can be seen as the mainstream view of academia that LDPJ is a liberal-conservative. Because, as the TFD said, there is no data comparing the LDPJ with the liberal-conservative parties in Europe. See WP:DUE. I think it's a minority view that the LDPJ is a liberal-conservative. Mureungdowon (talk) 11:23, 4 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

According to Factions in the Liberal Democratic Party (Japan)#Current factions, "There are currently five major factions and two minor factions in the LDP; and while most factions have official titles, in the Japanese media they are usually referred to by the names of their current leaders." Can anyone please tell me which of these seven factions are liberal conservative? TFD (talk) 12:51, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

None of those factions is directly described as "liberal-conservative". Kochikai is sometimes described as the only liberal, but as I said above, this has only a very relative meaning, and is overwhelmingly often not described as a liberal, but as a moderate. In Japan, "Kochikai" is synonymous with "Kishida factions," with Fumio Kishida leading an international lobbying effort to remove the symbol of Japanese Military Sexual Slavery, behind which is far-right (illiberal) ultranationalist Nippon Kaigi. And, as mentioned above, the LDP is not described as a liberal-conservative in any recent source, and the LDP is described as an ultranationalist. Mureungdowon (talk) 13:28, 4 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

Currently, most of the major politicians of the factions within the LDPJ belong to the Nippon Kaigi. Since 2006, all prime ministers from the LDPJ have consistently been members of the Nippon Kaigi, regardless of their factions, and have supported their historical revisionist policies. Mureungdowon (talk) 13:34, 4 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

Again, there is no "time limit" to age of references used to describe political parties, and the section is "Liberal-conservative parties or parties with liberal-conservative factions" – the references used can refer to the party as an aggregate, or factions therein. As noted in Culture and Power in Germany and Japan: The Spirit of Renewal by NJ Jørgensen, "LDP is a conservative party, an umbrella over many factions almost like separate parties within the party" – the party has a long history of being heterogeneous with different ideological currents.-- Autospark (talk) 15:29, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

I don't agree at all with overemphasizing that there is no "time limit". The source you presented also focuses on the LDP in the past when the Japan Socialist Party existed. The ideology of a particular party may change, and sources should preferably be the latest source. The LDP in 2023 has no liberal conservatives in the European political context. Mureungdowon (talk) 15:42, 4 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

That is your opinion only, unless you have evidence otherwise. Again, it's a rule you have unilaterally invented that references have "time limits".-- Autospark (talk) 15:49, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Since more recent sources say the party has taken a sharp turn to the right, you should find a source that the party is still liberal conservative.

The sources used are questionable anyway because of Wikipedia:BESTSOURCES. For example, if I wanted to add parties to a list of "far left" parties, I would use a source such as Luke March's "Contemporary Far Left Parties in Europe". He's an expert, he defines the topic and explains the criteria for inclusion on his list, while your sources just mention the classification in passing.

TFD (talk) 15:58, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Again, the section is called "Liberal-conservative parties or parties with liberal-conservative factions". The party could've taken a turn to the right (like many conservative parties in the developed world) while still containing liberal-conservative factions, and it does not change the fact that the party is 1.) still extant 2.) has referenced sources describing it in whole or part as liberal-conservative. I find the needless goalpost-shifting you indulge in to be exhausting. This is, again, "Liberal-conservative parties or parties with liberal-conservative factions" and any ideological shifts or leadership changes should be described on the article of the relevant political parties involved. I'm not contesting the other user's raising of the issue of historical revisionism or LDP politicians' links with Nippon Kaigi, I'm not denying either are serious issues which the relevant en.wiki article(s) should be describing, but this article is not the venue for it.-- Autospark (talk) 16:16, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

OK, let’s reach a compromise. There are references (some not ideal, and could be replaced by better references if available) that refer to the Japanese LDP/Jiminto as liberal-conservative. I recognise the party has shifted in its leadership over recent years. I am aware of the controversy over historical revisionism, and agree that the topic deserves mention on en.wiki, if not a standalone article about the issue. However, the party has been 'historically' (depending on the definition) been described as liberal-conservative, and that should really be reflected in the list given the importance of the Japanese LDP. How do we go about this? Should we leave in Mureungdowon's disclaimer (something I would accept as valid, add an additional tag, some other form of recognition? Moving the party to the "Former parties" subsection seems incorrect as the party is still extant and active, while that subsection for defunct political parties..--Autospark (talk) 18:51, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

This problem may be solved by adding a detailed session:

• Present liberal-conservative tendencies
• Former liberal-conservative tendencies (in current parties)
• Historical parties or factions

There is an exemplary example of this. See Ultranationalism#Ultranationalist political parties Mureungdowon (talk) 20:01, 4 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

The "Former liberal-conservative tendencies (in current parties)" session can include numerous political parties in Japan, Turkey, and Eastern Europe. Mureungdowon (talk) 20:11, 4 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

I don't know why you assume it is liberal conservative or has those factions then look for sources. That's backwards. We should be looking for sources about liberal conservatism, assuming they exist, and use it to identify such parties. In the meantime, I don't want to compromise between what sources say and what you have concluded.

According to The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Politics, a faction is "an organized group within a political party, especially in a country where they have semi-permanent existence, such as Japan or Italy." That seems pretty relevant to this article. You need to identify which of these factions is liberal conservative and then provide sources. A best source in this case would list the ideologies of every faction.

20:28, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

The factions of the LDP are different from the usual factions of political parties in Europe or the United States. The factions of the LDP do not have an ideological basis itself. The factions of the LDP exist as a kind of personal interest relationship and personal friendship between politicians. Therefore, only the ideology of the LDP itself exists. Mureungdowon (talk) 20:45, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

I canceled the proposal to create a 'Former resident-conservative tendencies (in current parties)' session. I support the status quo. Mureungdowon (talk) 11:54, 5 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

Two issues have been mixed here: the very existance of "liberal conservatism" and Japan's LDP being listed in this article. On the first issue, there is no doubt that liberal conservatism is a standard categorisation for political parties according to European political science and in most of the world. On the latter issue, this discussion has been unnecessarily long, as positions are quite clear and clearly, as of now, there is no consensus for removing Japan's LDP from the list. I do respect personal motivations against the LDP, but those motivations are indeed personal and have nothing to do with sources. Moreover, the very same user usually tends to see most political parties futher to the right than they actually are. I especially do not understand the business of depicting right-wing parties as far-right. The LDP, like it or not, is a large, mainstream party. Its policies and its historical approach might be nationalist, but it is the mainstream conservative party in Japan, a democracy. More important to us, the fact that it contains liberal-conservative and conservative-liberal factions is backed by sources. We should have a balanced and international perspective, otherwise all parties strongly supporting their countries' national identity would be described nationalist (surely, French and American parties tend to be more nationalist than German and Italian parties are, but this does not mean that all those parties are nationalist by international standards) and all parties opposing a specific social policy would be hard-right (when, in some contexts, there are even social-democratic or generally progessive parties opposing abortion or same-sex marriage). --Checco (talk) 16:28, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Mainstream conservative parties in Germany, France, Itary or the United States are not described as ultranatonalists or fascists. And above all, there is no consensus in adding LDPJ to the article. It's a new edit, so it should be removed immediately. Mureungdowon (talk) 05:00, 7 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

The mainstream conservative parties in France and the United States are center-right parties and the LDP is a not center-right party. Mainstream conservative parties in France and the United States do not defend the Nazis or the Japanese Empire. Germany and Japan were former Axis powers. In both countries, nationalism should be considered far-right in itself. Indeed, in Germany, German nationalism is considered far-right. The LDPJ is a Japanese nationalist political party. Mureungdowon (talk) 07:18, 7 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

Blatant lies, it is not a “new edit”; the party has been on the list section of the article for at least fourteen years (which was prior to references being added for any of the parties on that list). Please revert your removal of it. Also, please refrain from continually taking the discussion WP:OFFTOPIC.— Autospark (talk) 07:49, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

No, unlike 10 years ago, LDPJ was removed from the article 2 years ago. There have been no attempts to add back from the article for some time since. Mureungdowon (talk) 07:56, 7 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

As of 2013, it is not a relatively old time, as there are sources in 2011. But now it's 2023. Mureungdowon (talk) 08:03, 7 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

I suggest a vote on whether LDPJ should be added or remove to the Liberal conservatism article. Mureungdowon (talk) 05:13, 7 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

There is no consensus on removing the party from the list. A new consensus is needed to remove it. Please seek it, instead of edit warring. --Checco (talk) 20:48, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

No. There is no consensus to add it. Let's not start an editorial war, let's keep the status quo until consensus is reached. LDPJ wants to be removed from the article immediately. Mureungdowon (talk) 23:30, 7 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

I disagree with Checco that "liberal conservatism is a standard categorisation for political parties according to European political science and in most of the world." The standard categories were communist, socialist, green, liberal, Christian democratic, conservative, extreme right, agrarian, nationalist and unclassified. "Left" parties have now been added. In some cases, further definition is possible. But the term liberal conservative remains undefined. To some writers, it means conservative parties that accepted some liberal principles, such as the historic UK Conservative Party that accepted liberal rights such as private property. To others it means liberal parties, such as the U.S. republicans, that place an emphasis on tradition and have never challenged liberal rights such as private property.

If Checco is right, they should be able to find a book about comparative politics in Europe that lists liberal conservatism as a party family. I have not been able to find one and so I see the list of parties and factions in this article as original research. The categorization reflects the opinions of Wikipedia editors rather than the consensus of political scientists. TFD (talk) 00:25, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

I also very support with the TFD's view. The entire list of political parties should be removed from the Liberal conservatism article. Or at least LDPJ should be removed from the article. Mureungdowon (talk) 00:48, 8 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

I’m strongly against the removal of the list of parties on this article (as I would be with any similar article about a recognised political ideology). There is enough references added to the list section to back up the fact that there are countless sources which describe political parties as liberal-conservative.— Autospark (talk) 01:02, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

If so, we should not oppose the removal of the LDPJ. Germany doesn't even deny the Holocaust by moderates in the AfD. Germany's major political parties never support ultranationalism or historical revisionism against war crimes. The LDPJ is no different from a neo-fascist by German political standards. LDPJ is more extreme than AfD so how do you become a liberal-conservative??? Mureungdowon (talk) 01:26, 8 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

Again, you’re going into wildly non-sequitur arguments, to the point of seemingly denying political science. Here’s one explanation of liberal conservatism; there are many more. Whatever your personal feelings about the LDP, that doesn’t invalidate the existence of existing literature on political theory. This is not being objective, so please engage with the topic at hand.— Autospark (talk) 01:36, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Is there a political scientist's view that the LDP supports the same ideology as Europe's (generally center-right) liberal-conservative political party? The LDP is a nationalist and pathenalistic-conservative, not a liberal-conservative. Mureungdowon (talk) 01:51, 8 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

Since the LDPJ has not been removed, United Russia, an obvious liberal-conservative in equity, has been added to the list. United Russia can be seen as a liberal-conservative because it supports conservatism based on the market economy and private property. There is no updated data describing LDPJ as a liberal-conservative, but there is an updated data describing United Russia as a liberal-conservative. Mureungdowon (talk) 07:46, 8 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

You haven't addressed by concerns. It certainly is true that various writers at different times may join the words liberal conservative when describing any center right party. However, there is no reason to believe that the words put together have a consistent meaning and no literature produced to show this is the case.

In the case of the liberal party family, there are countless books devoted to their ideology, books about party families that define their characteristics and books classifying (mostly) Western European parties that are liberal. To do this they use several factors such as the historical circumstances of their origins, party name, international affiliation and self-identification.

There is nothing like that for this topic. TFD (talk) 06:29, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

I strong support your opinion very actively. The party lists in this article should be removed. Or at least the LDPJ should be removed. Mureungdowon (talk) 07:49, 8 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

It is pointless to support that "liberal conservatism" does not exist as there are several sources explaining what it is.

On the other side, once again, it is not a contradiction that a conservative party or even a nationalist one can also contain liberal-conservative factions. This said, I have the impression that User:Mureungdowon is not neutral on the issue. --Checco (talk) 19:31, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

This ignores the fact that Japan was an three main Axis in the past. Japanese nationalism is pernicious. And none of the parties here are liberal-conservative: Ultranationalism#Ultranationalist political parties. Mureungdowon (talk) 20:09, 8 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

This ignores the fact that we are not in 1943, but in 2023. And, again, not all the LDP is liberal-conservative, factions of it are. --Checco (talk) 07:44, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

No, the victims of Japanese war crimes are still alive in South Korea. There are bereaved families even if they die after more than 20 years. Most of all, you are contradictory; there are sources that the LDP is liberal-conservative, but there are sources that are ultranationalist. Why do you insist that the former has a source, but ignore sources that belong to the latter? Mureungdowon (talk) 09:42, 14 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE

A majority of the party may be nationalist, but still there are sourced liberal-conservative sources. --Checco (talk) 19:59, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Can you name one of the liberal conservative factions? My understanding is that factionalism in the party is based on personalities rather than ideologies. TFD (talk) 12:07, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Take a look to the sources. However, factions can be organised groups or mere ideological trends within a party. --Checco (talk) 19:59, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

I think what Mu/Storm was getting at is that we shouldn't references to when a party that has changed in the last 10 years. I don't think has been referred to as a liberal conservative party really since Abe became leader, except for the one in 2011. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 14:57, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

I think it’s irrelevant what a banned, aggressive, dishonest and disruptive, sockpuppet account has stated, really. There’s no rule on en.wiki for time limits to references for political parties.— Autospark (talk) 15:27, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Then if a party shifts closer to the centre over time, but it no longer to the left or right, or vise-versa, then surely the position it was is the past should be listed as being historical? For example, the FDP in Germany used to be a social liberal party, but over the years moved to the centre-right, while the social liberals became a minority. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 15:38, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

The German FDP was only officially social-liberal during the time of the Freiburger Theses being the party programme – it didn't just 'turn' to the right. Most of the party's history, the vast majority, it has been a right-leaning liberal party.-- Autospark (talk) 16:09, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Autospark, how would you summarize your source's definition? Spencer and Hayek are normally described as liberals. Spencer explained in his essay "The New Toryism" that he moved from the Liberals to the Conservative Party because he thought Gladstone's social reforms posed the greater threat to liberalism. Hayek expressed his opposition to conservatism in "Why I am not a conservative." The definition seems to be liberal factions within conservative parties. It's actually fairly common that liberals and conservatives group into an anti-socialist coalition, which is how the LDP originated. TFD (talk) 16:37, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

I do not understand why the scope of this discussions is widening more and more. Surely, conservatives and liberals gave birth to the LDP. The party might have shifted to the left or to right in different times, but still it is fair to say (and sources back it) that the party is home to liberal-conservative factions, tendencies and individuals, as well as conservative-liberal or liberal factions, tendencies and individuals (there is a parallel thread at Talk:Conservative liberalism). It does not really matter how much the party has shifted to the right over the last years or how small those factions are, but they exist. As a side note, I also agree with User:Autospark on Germany's FDP, which User:Mureungdowon saw as centrist rather than centre-right: the party has probably shifted to the left over the years, but it is still mainly a centre-right outfit. --Checco (talk) 04:44, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia policy is clear that claims in articles must be reliably sourced and not be based on conclusions drawn by editors. Even if we accept your synthesis, the fact that liberals and conservatives founded the LDP does not mean it had a liberal conservative ideology. According to recent sources, it may have transformed into a far right party, which means the earlier sources have been made obsolete, which WP:AGEMATTERS warns about. Furthermore, while sources show that the LDP is divided into factions, none of these sources identify any of them as liberal conservative. TFD (talk) 05:27, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

I will just jump into this conversation you guys are having to add some context you may be missing, please check this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Liberal_Democratic_Party_(Japan)_leadership_election

33.4% and 8.2% of the party vote (41.6%) went to candidates that were and are in favor of same sex marriage, married couples having the freedom of keeping separate surnames, etc., (Kono and Noda). The other 33.6% went to Kishida, which is considered a center/center-right politician. The last 24.6% went to Takaichi, the only one in the election that was considered right-wing/far right. This is all public knowledge and the numbers are pretty clear. Liberalism is well and alive inside the LDP. The party as a whole may not be considered liberal but liberal members inside the party are many and enough for it to be in included in this page and those sources that called it liberal or as having liberal members/factions are relevant.

Unrelated to that discussion but I can't find any academic sources saying the LDP has "transformed into a far right party". I don't know where did you read that from to get that impression but academics studies on the party as a whole call it big tent and center-right to right-wing. That's the general consensus. Don't use sensationalist news sources, "analysis", travel books, or whatever for something like this. If you want to look at what an actual far right party looks like in Japan see "Japan First Party", which luckily as zero seats in the Diet. WetGlass (talk) 10:57, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

What User:WetGlass wrote is certainly accurate. By the way, there are sources claiming that the LDP is partly liberal-conservative. --Checco (talk) 07:44, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

@WetGlass: I think the banned user was conflating the organisation that the majority of the party's reps. are a part of and the policies and positions the party expresses. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 11:14, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

European regional varieties

I understand that such unsourced infos could not stay in the article without sources. Nonetheless, most of these infos are factually accurate:

Some regional varieties and peculiarities can be observed. In much of Central and Northwestern Europe, especially in Germanic and traditionally Protestant countries as well as the United Kingdom and Belgium, a divide persists between liberal conservatives (including Christian democrats) and liberals (including conservative liberals and social liberals). In most Nordic countries, liberal conservatives, Christian democrats and liberals form distinct political families and each have their own party. The largest liberal parties are the Nordic agrarian parties, which are traditionally agrarian. In most countries where Romance languages are spoken and where Catholicism is or has been dominant as well as in Greece and Poland, liberal conservative [parties], often encompassing Christian democrats and liberals, have more recently gained traction and the terms conservative and liberal [are often] synonymous.

Since there are such regional varieties in Europe, could anyone find sources and expand the article accordingly? -- Checco (talk) 12:02, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

FDP

Never heard the German FDP designated as conservative or liberal conservative… דולב חולב (talk) 21:02, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

It is more accuretely described as conservative-liberal or just liberal, indeed. --Checco (talk) 18:55, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

So can we delete it from the list? דולב חולב (talk) 20:46, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

https://books.google.com/books?id=Ste-DAAAQBAJ&pg=PA269

link describing: The FDP liberal- conservative economic stances.

Not that the party is overall a liberal Conservative Party. דולב חולב (talk) 02:58, 2 June 2025 (UTC)