Talk:Juan Matteucci

Rewrite of Matteucci conductor course paragraph

@Gertrude206: Thanks for initiating this overdue article about Matteucci. Can you please detail what was wrong with the sources I provided, in particular the reason for the removal of Alexandra Wiltshire? She is pictured in the wide-shot photograph on the front page Auckland Star article and her thesis recalls her time as a conductor for CATS. The course for conductors was run at the New Zealand School of Music, whereas the current rewrite makes it appear to be somewhere else. The chronological order is also reversed, as the conducting course preceded the planned Orchestral Training Scheme. Notwithstanding all the publicity found in the sources, the OTS never made it into its second year owing to financial difficulties at the Symphonia and the NZSM itself in funding the course. PS this rewritten section is flagging refname errors now: "Cite error: The named reference ":0" was defined multiple times with different content." Reverted for now, pending discussion. Chrisdevelop (talk) 03:11, 11 May 2026 (UTC)

Yes oops about the ref name errors. I got interrupted during my editing and realised my mistake later. Point taken about my rewrite and the chronological order of the orchestral and conducting courses. The objective of my rewrite was two-fold:

Firstly the use of sources:

• I added the City News (25 January 1977) reference to the first sentence because it does say that Matteucci approached Derek Williams (musician) about the course. The other two references do not i.e. Inkster and New Zealand Herald (5 March 1976).
• The course did make the front page of the Auckland Star (22 July 1976) but the report did not say that women conductors were a rarity and neither did the other references for this sentence. The City News (25 January 1977) does not mention women conductors and the New Zealand Herald (8 September 1976) says that Williams was surprised by the number of female applicants for the course and that half of the participants were women. Yes, we know women conductors were unusual, but can you make that statement about women conductors?
• Alexandra Wiltshire may be in the photo of the Auckland Star (22 July 1976) article but I couldn’t find her named in the photo caption or the article.
• The National Library source for Wiltshire does not say she participated in the conducting course.

Secondly, the purpose of my rewrite was to convey Matteucci’s aims and work with the NZSOM courses while acknowledging Derek Williams as the founder and director. I don’t think the sentences about Alexandra Wiltshire, and her and Williams involvement with CATS, are relevant to Matteucci. I removed them as per WP:COATRACK. I suggest those sentences are more pertinent to the article on Williams and the section there on the NZSOM.

Lastly I have corrected some details of the references. Wiltshire’s thesis is easily found on the Swinburne University site; surely a better source than Scribd? --Gertrude206 (talk) 00:50, 14 May 2026 (UTC)

Thanks for this detailed explanation. Re Wiltshire, the relevance was that after completing the course with Matteucci, she became the first woman to conduct a major opera in New Zealand, and that half the registrants for the course were women. This milestone makes her a notable alumna of the conducting course. Also running the course with NZSM was initiated by Matteucci after Auckland University under Peter Godfrey had canned the idea. Godfrey later remonstrated with Matteucci for it and eventually Auckland Uni started a conductors’ course some time later, but we’re not sure when that was or by whom it was taught. I am still working on this, as well as the Conservatorio Milano and the connections, so if we can leave it as is for now, I’ll come back asap with updates that will join the dots. Chrisdevelop (talk) 13:17, 14 May 2026 (UTC)

Not sure whether you were able to find and to read the New Zealand Arts Horizon double full-page feature article, Autumn 1976, written by Ian Inkster, who also authored all the press releases that led to the articles in the Auckland Star, New Zealand Herald and various 'Stuff' suburban news mastheads, so for now, I am copying below OCR of a scan of the original full interview, which includes portrait photographs of Matteucci and of Williams, and another of Matteucci conducting the Symphonia of Auckland:

Thanks for the text of that article which I have not seen - most interesting bit of Auckland's musical politics too. It strikes me that there are enough sources for someone (you?) to write at least a Stub article about the NZSOM. A search of Papers Past finds that talk of the need for a New Zealand School of Music goes back more than 100 years so there's a bit of history and an article entitled 'New Zealand School of Music, Auckland' would lead onto the current NZSOM in Wellington. A brief section in Derek Williams' article could remain but link to the main article and the material about Alexandra Wiltshire and the female students could go there (where I think it belongs). Although the School closed after a few years it would be a great opportunity to tell a bit of music history that will otherwise be lost, or buried in non-digital sources. I am happy to check out published sources too if need be. Gertrude206 (talk) 01:38, 15 May 2026 (UTC)

@Gertrude206:That's a good idea. I did try a few years ago to append the old NZSM information to the current Wellington article soon after it was published, and then just linked to it from the Williams article, but an editor reverted the whole post as "about a different school" and it didn't seem worth defending at the time. There has since been created a New Zealand Music Examinations Board, which should also have an article. That was the longterm direction intended by the NZSM started by Williams. By all means if you come up with new sources, I'm on board. Chrisdevelop (talk) 03:52, 15 May 2026 (UTC)

I have added NZMEB to Requested Articles and will do the same for an Auckland NZSM article once it's been backgrounded. Chrisdevelop (talk) 13:21, 16 May 2026 (UTC)

Will there be enough sources for an article on NZMEB? There's this one article in an obscure journal. Gertrude206 (talk) 15:26, 16 May 2026 (UTC)

I see, maybe not. Thanks for checking. That is surprising. Chrisdevelop (talk) 23:13, 16 May 2026 (UTC)

Thinking again about this, perhaps the current NZSM article could be expanded into a Class C, with a new background section prefacing the current History section, and then splice in the Auckland effort. As mentioned, I did unsuccessfully attempt this already, but that was before you made me made me aware of the 100 year history, so this might fly. I imagine the Talk page could become quite lively! Chrisdevelop (talk) 01:43, 19 May 2026 (UTC)

I am not sure about including a different organisation in a different city in the current NZSM article. Of the 3 options - a new article, section in Williams article or current NZSM article - I think either the first or second are preferable. I have searched hard copy indices NZ publications from 1975-1980 and a couple of books on NZ music and found no further references to the Auckland school so there are only the sources you have. That should be enough for a Stub article as one 'can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear' so to speak. Gertrude206 (talk) 07:40, 20 May 2026 (UTC)

Good points. Another option is a rename, pluralising the title of the Wellington article to “New Zealand Schools of Music” with sections for Auckland and Wellington, since neither managed enough traction to justify being called the ‘New Zealand’ for the whole country. Such an upgrade could include the 100 year history you mention, and could make mention of the NZMEB. If you think that might fly, a proposal could be added to the Wellington article’s Talk page. Chrisdevelop (talk) 11:03, 20 May 2026 (UTC)

You could try to open up a discussion on the NZSM talk page but another option for a discussion is to post something on the New Zealand Wikipedian's Noticeboard to see what others think of the alternatives. Gertrude206 (talk) 10:00, 23 May 2026 (UTC)

Chrisdevelop, can you please reply without delay about the copyright status of the above text? Schwede66 03:25, 15 May 2026 (UTC)

@Schwede66:Thanks for the heads-up, and yes I will do so. NZ Arts Horizon went out of business in the late 1970s so it will take some sleuthing. Ian Inkster whom I've searched for appears to be uncontactable. Any searches for the publication nowadays bring up ebay sellers trying to offload their back copies. The scan provided above was taken from an original hard copy from Derek Williams' scrapbook. At least for now, the source's author and host publication are already attributed. Chrisdevelop (talk) 03:44, 15 May 2026 (UTC)

Well, if it doesn't state on the hardcopy somewhere that it's published under a free license, then it's copyrighted. And if it is in copyright, the above text needs to be revision-deleted. Schwede66 04:34, 15 May 2026 (UTC)

Inside the front cover of the magazine it names "New Zealand Guild of Artists Trust" as publishers, however a google for this comes up only with similarly named organisations, so it appears to be defunct. If you still think this should be deleted I'm fine with that, as it was only cited here to show Gertrude206 (talk · contribs) the actual source, and thus has now served its purpose. I presume you are referring to WP:RevDel? If so, since you are Admin, can you do the deed? Chrisdevelop (talk) 10:06, 15 May 2026 (UTC)

I've removed the copyvio text. Schwede66 01:00, 17 May 2026 (UTC)