Talk:Frances Kray

Requested move 25 May 2026

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Jeffrey34555 (talk) 05:01, 5 June 2026 (UTC)

---

Frances Kray → Frances SheaFrances Shea – Please place your rationale for the proposed move here. Kennerth28 (talk) 20:29, 25 May 2026 (UTC) — Relisting. ⹃Maltazarian ^{ᚾparley$\lor$investigateᛅ} 21:26, 1 June 2026 (UTC)

Oppose, at the time of death this was her legal name, her maiden name can be found at the top of the article Amsiism (talk) 02:52, 2 June 2026 (UTC)

Even though the lady in question was married to Reggie Kray at the time of her death, she is often referred to as Frances Shea by secondary sources, modern-day biographers, and the media. The move of the article to the name under which the lady in question was born makes for a better fit with WP:COMMONNAME and also separates her from the Kray criminals. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kennerth28 (talk • contribs) 20:30, 25 May 2026 (UTC)

• Oppose, no sources cited. 162 etc. (talk) 20:55, 25 May 2026 (UTC)
• Comment Her only claim to notability appears to be her association with Reggie Kray, and this may be a case of WP:INVALIDBIO. 162 etc. (talk) 20:55, 25 May 2026 (UTC)
• Comment: This would be a more compelling argument if the nominator provided examples of secondary sources, modern-day biographers, and the media calling her by that name. pburka (talk) 21:33, 25 May 2026 (UTC)

  Google Books Entry While the title uses her married name for marketing, the biographical substance of Jacky Hyams' work focuses entirely on her identity as Frances Shea, explicitly stating in the synopsis that her life story is defined by her birth name.

  The Guardian Feature

  this high-quality journalistic piece defaults to using her maiden name in the main body text when identifying her independently of the Kray brothers, establishing it as the standard in modern retrospective media.

  The Guardian (Family Interview): The Guardian Interview

  This article universally uses "Frances Shea" when discussing her legacy and her family's perspective, proving that reliable sources prioritize her maiden name when covering her life in detail.

  Major Motion Picture Credits (Legend, 2015): Wikipedia Page for Legend (2015)

  In the official credits, billing, and global promotional materials for this major biographical film, the character is explicitly named Frances Shea, which significantly shapes how the general public recognizes her today (WP:COMMONNAME). Kennerth28 (talk) 10:45, 26 May 2026 (UTC)

  Please don't use AI to write your arguments for you. It's much less convincing that way. {{GearsDatapacks|talk|contribs}} 21:27, 1 June 2026 (UTC)

  There is no place for such tools in all environments where hard work is valued, including wikipedia. I believe there should be a total ban on anybody using such artificial intelligence programs. Kennerth28 (talk) 15:50, 2 June 2026 (UTC)

• Oppose. She's commonly known as Frances Kray, that's the name she used and that's why she's notable. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:22, 29 May 2026 (UTC)

  So if that is the only reason she is notable why is this an article rather than a redirect?TheLongTone (talk) 13:39, 2 June 2026 (UTC)

  @TheLongTone Your opinion is not valid at all in this situation. Seeing as how you want this article removed and even nominated for deletion, it might be better if you stick to what subjects you write about, rather than sabotage this one. Kennerth28 (talk) 15:52, 2 June 2026 (UTC)

@Kennerth28: We are all here in a shared effort to make this encyclopedia better. Please WP:ASSUMEGOODFAITH and comment on content, not on the contributor. 162 etc. (talk) 22:04, 3 June 2026 (UTC)

@TheLongTone: The AfD is closed. Please respect the consensus of the community. There's no value in resurrecting that discussion. pburka (talk) 22:17, 3 June 2026 (UTC)

@Pburka, @TheLongTone, @162 etc. TheLongTone previously argued for the deletion of this article because he believed that Frances Kray was “not notable.” My concern is that if an editor is unfamiliar with the subject entirely, their judgement of notability may lack the necessary context and understanding of the topic. To use an example: I would not involve myself in discussions surrounding a topic such as Star Trek, because I do not know enough about it to make an informed judgement. In the same way, discussions about Frances Kray should involve editors who are at least familiar with the subject matter. So @TheLongTone, I ask that comments on this topic be made from a position of knowledge and familiarity with the subject. Kennerth28 (talk) 15:03, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

This isn't how Wikipedia works. We don't defer to expertise but instead rely on reliable sources. You don't need to be an expert on Kray/Shea to interpret the sources and determine what her common name is. pburka (talk) 15:30, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.