Talk:Conducting

Poor photo choice

That 1941 rehearsal photo of von Karajan is in very bad taste. By 1939 all of the Jewish musicians in Germany were dismissed from the orchestra and replaced with gentiles (some of whom were mediocre musicians). Many of those Jews were murdered or waiting to die in concentration camps. The concert for which this rehearsal transpires is for the Nazi elite; some of whom were complicit in the Holocaust. This is NOT accusing Herbert van Karajan of anything. It's the Nazi era photo that is disturbing. David Cary Hart (talk) 00:38, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Beat Pattern Images

Having the diagrams of beat patterns on the page seems to imply that they are the standard way of conducting; there is a variety of styles that disagree with this. For example, the majority of my teachers have placed all the beats in the center. Maybe it should be noted that the patterns shown are from a specific style? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.218.223.167 (talk) 21:06, 3 March 2007 (UTC).

These beat patterns are just a general guide to gesture which is mutually understood by both instrumentalists and singers. It is simply a guide and should be deviated from based on required interpretation and effect. You may liken these patterns to a basic dress pattern; Each pattern must be modified to suit the size and silhouette of each particular person (or sonic event, in this case), and deviation from the standards is a gesture in itself to create a desired effect. The pattern a conductor chooses is absolutely inconsequential as long as the gesture communicates his interpretation. This is most often accomplished through rehearsal. Conductors will simply say "I'm beating two here." It is up to the individual performer to in turn use that as a guide to keep time with the rest of the group and guide his own interpretation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ashuduanna (talk • contribs) 09:00, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I think it would be good if we could include the patterns (both German and French) for 7 and the french for 6! :)--Karljoos (talk) 19:33, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

The text says beat patterns for the commonest meters are shown, but none is shown for 4/4. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.186.166.197 (talk) 04:26, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Frankly, having played in a huge variety of ensembles over quite a few decades, I'd question the conductor's ability if I saw them on a podium doing the nonsense in several of those images, and worse (for the article's purpose), the book cited as the source of those images does not actually contain them. I've commented out the diagrams and removed the sentence specifically calling out the source, but I left the source as a reference in case people want to see what conducting patterns actually look like. (The book is under copyright and as such I won't be copying anything directly from it.) --Jemiller226 (talk) 03:49, 13 February 2025 (UTC)

Downbeats are often upbeats

While textbooks and teachers say that the first beat of a measure should be a downbeat, in practice many conductors beat "up" on the first beat - although not necessarily all the time. If you watch Zubin Mehta or film of Leonard Bernstein you'll see the effect I'm talking about. Many people will swear that no real conductor would ever do this, but if you watch carefully you'll see that it's very common. In fact, one choral conductor who usually conducts on the downbeat complained that whenever he conducted an orchestra they'd come in late, effectively forcing him to conduct on the upbeat. To see the kind of thing I'm talking about have a look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41-f2o-1W4A If you tap along with the beat you'll see that Mehta's baton is up on the beat rather than down. My guess is that conductors do this because a beat up is more visible to a large group than a beat down. I know this complicates the explanation of baton movements, but it's the real world of conducting, not just something out of a textbook. I think some comment in the article about this reality would be in order. I can't give any specific reference for this, it's just something you can observe with your own eyes. Gerry246 (talk) 04:37, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

This is true, although I don't think the word downbeat actually refers to the conductor's gesture. Furthermore, some orchestra conductors insist on beating time ahead of the orchestra -- it isn't that hard to follow once you get used to it. —Wahoofive (talk) 05:38, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Maybe so, but I hate when conductors do this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.10.238.212 (talk) 06:12, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Every great conductor conducts "ahead" of the beat and on the "upbeat". However these descriptions of what is happening are a bit misleading. The problem is the idea of an ictus. There is really no such thing as an ictus in reality. There are only downward and upward motions of the arm and wrist. It is not true that great conductors really conduct "ahead" as in just slightly ahead of the beat. What they are doing is showing a subdivision. The downward motion is the "and" and the upward motion is where the beat actually occurs. This works best because you can only influence what musicians play by what they see before they play (the downward motion corresponding with the subdivisions). This is hard to explain but if you watch a video of any great conductor you will see this and you will NOT see the sharp "ictus" on the beat.

That last comment is pretty much nonsense, but I also wanted to remind everyone that you can't rely on YouTube videos (or any video) to determine the relationship between gesture and sound, because the synchronization between sound and music in video recordings is not always exact. —Wahoofive (talk) 02:47, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Some years ago a visiting professor of choral music from the U.S.A. started his rehearsal with a large group of choristers here in Sydney by warning that he didn't want to confuse people, but he would be conducting "up" on the downbeat. He said this helped to make the music "lighter, and more lively". Here's a good example of a conductor beating up on the downbeat. In the video you'll see Mehta often snapping his baton up in a very sharp "ictus" on the first beat of the bar (not all the time though). And it's not the case that sound and picture are out of sync, because you just have to watch the instrumentalists' movements to see sound is in time with picture. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpUJ4-qqV-I Or watch Simon Rattle here, with the Berlin Philharmonic to see more of what I'm talking about. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRh7r-ttAUA Gerry246 (talk) 06:09, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

In my years of experience in various orchestras, I can say that most conductors say that their downbeat is at the bottom of the stroke, but it's actually at the top. If you actually play the downbeat when the baton is at the bottom, they will accuse you of playing ahead of the beat. 68.196.1.236 (talk) 17:59, 13 April 2021 (UTC)captcrisis

music

it is a form of musical pieces played together to form sound vibrations 102.134.175.220 (talk) 17:45, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Classic and Romantic Music History

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