Talk:Abane Ramdane

Sources to develop article

An anonymous editor added content from this web site, which had to be removed (cut and paste copyright violation). If an editor has time to paraphrase and rewrite it could improve this stub. --Siobhan Hansa 01:30, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Expansion

I'm currently reading Alistair Horne's "A Savage War of Peace" about the Algerian Revolution and was surprised to see that this article is a mere stub. Though he didn't live through the war he was most certainly one of the most important figures during the early parts of it. Namely in integrating, by force, former rival organizations like the moderate Ferhat Abbas' Union Démocratique du Manifeste Algérien (and Abbas himself), the Algerian Communist Party and Messali Hadj's Mouvement national algérien into the FLN. I'll try to expand it if I have time, help however would most certainly be welcomed. Thanks.--Jersey Devil 07:30, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Abane Ramdane à la Soummam.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 12:38, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Clarity of Language

The second paragraph of this page starts with "the National Liberation Front (FLN) had him killed". While he was killed by members of the FLN who conspired to commit the assassination, it is incorrect that as a whole the FLN had him killed. This language also causes confusion because, while the phrase indicates that the FLN was unified in the murder, the paragraph later states that "his murder was disturbing to many FLN members". Adding a source for his murder and clarifying the language in this paragraph would improve the entry.

Name in the Kabyle language

Discussion of the pertinence of including Abane Ramdane's name in the Kabyle language can go here. I believe it should be included, but not cited, as per WP:NOCITE, as his name is common knoweldge and doesn't require citation, not much more than his name in Latin or Arabic requires citation to warrant inclusion in this page. If needed, I can prove that his name would be citeable. In "Belgasmia, Nora. L'expression écrite en tamazight. Algérie: Haut Commissariat à l'Amazighité, 2006.", Abane Ramdane's name in Kabyle is included. Quote
"Ɛebban Remḍan d aqbayli. Ilul ass n 10 yunyu 1920"
Meaning, Abane Ramdane is a Kabyle, he was born on the 10th of June 1920. Jubq (talk) 17:14, 10 October 2025 (UTC)

Kabyle is an unwritten language that has never been used to keep records of names. Just because you found "a source" (a translation, which could be in any language) doesn't mean you have to introduce anachronism into the article. M.Bitton (talk) 18:11, 10 October 2025 (UTC)

Kabyle is an unwritten language that has never been used to keep records of names.
The book I cited is clearly written in Kabyle, though? Jubq (talk) 18:16, 10 October 2025 (UTC)

Is that supposed to contradict what I said? If you look had enough, you might also find his name written in Urdu. M.Bitton (talk) 18:18, 10 October 2025 (UTC)

Yes. It is. A language can't be unwritten if something is written in it. Don't be obtuse. And this isn't a translation. This is a bilingual book that includes parts in Kabyle and in French. And miss me with the idea that this is an anacronism. This standard has never been applied to any other language. The pages about Ottoman figures include the names in modern Turkish alongside Ottoman Turkish. It's relevant because the man is Kabyle. If the man was Pakistani, I would include his name in Urdu, because it's equally relevant. But it' not. Jubq (talk) 18:20, 10 October 2025 (UTC)

For a start, he was Algerian. Was Kabyle used (as a written language) during his lifetime? M.Bitton (talk) 18:22, 10 October 2025 (UTC)

Was Turkish used as a written language, using the latin alphabet used during Mehmet II's time too? Was Hangeul used before Sejong the great's time, should we remove all the Hangeul from pre-Sejong the great kings in Korea? This standard has never been applied for any other language. But I would like to add, though not in this form, French linguists did develop kabyle dictionaries and write Kabyle in the latin Alphabet, though not in this form, obviously. I would also like to add that being Algerian and being Kabyle are absolutely not in opposition like you seem to imply. In fact for one to be Kabyle they need to be Algerian. There are no Kabyles outside of Algeria, excluding the Diaspora which originates in Algeria anyways. Jubq (talk) 18:29, 10 October 2025 (UTC)

You can't compare apples to oranges. Kabyle is (which has no official status of any kind) was not and is not currently used to keep records of names.

Second, we only add non-English names that are closely associated with the subject (so that anyone interested in them can look them up in that language). Even if properly sourced (it certainly isn't), what use would a Kabyle name be to anyone? M.Bitton (talk) 18:36, 10 October 2025 (UTC)

You can't compare apples to oranges. Kabyle is (which has no official status of any kind) was not and is not currently used to keep records of names.

Except when it is, like in the sources I keep sending your way. Kabyle also has official status as Tamazight in Algeria. And I don't see where your standard that "names should only be there so you can look them up in that language" comes from. There's also Kabyle literature that mentions Abane Ramdane as I've demonstrated, just because it's obscure to you, and you don't know it, does not mean it does not exist. What if someone wants to look him up in Kabyle media, or just know what his name would be in his native language? This is relevant information that should be on the article. Jubq (talk) 18:42, 10 October 2025 (UTC)

I see that you're not interested in my opinion; and since you have no intention of seeking consensus (as asked on your talk page) for your changes (preferring to edit was instead), I will do what I have to do to stop the disruption. M.Bitton (talk) 18:49, 10 October 2025 (UTC)

I believe this requires a 3O rather than a simple disengagement. Jubq (talk) 18:52, 10 October 2025 (UTC)

@M.Bitton I am going to leave this out for 3O, so that we may be able to resolve our disagreements. Jubq (talk) 19:24, 10 October 2025 (UTC)

@Jubq @M.Bitton

Response to third opinion request:

I am responding here due to a call for a third opinion. I have no association with the editors in this disagreement and have never edited this article before. I see you are disagreeing over whether the name of Abane Ramdane should be included in this article's lead. I believe editors should consult MOS:BIOALTNAME which provides specific information on when it is appropriate or inappropriate to include translations of names into other languages. Katzrockso (talk) 19:47, 10 October 2025 (UTC) @Katzrockso You haven't given a third opinion. Telling two editors to consult MOS:BIOALTNAME isn't sufficient. Nemov (talk) 19:55, 10 October 2025 (UTC) Hi @Nemov, thanks for the reply. This is my first time providing a third opinion so I am sure I could be wrong, but I read the example from the 3OR template which gives an example on a citation to a guideline. It is my opinion that the editors should consult the manual of style and apply it to this article - I am not familiar with the person in question so I would not be able to apply the guideline myself. If that is not appropriate, please explain. Thanks, Katzrockso (talk) 20:05, 10 October 2025 (UTC) If you can't offer an opinion on this dispute then I'd recommend adding it back to the noticeboard. Nemov (talk) 20:09, 10 October 2025 (UTC) I did provide what I consider an opinion - that the editors should consult the manual of style and apply the guideline to the article. Katzrockso (talk) 20:11, 10 October 2025 (UTC) You haven't given an opinion to resolve the specific dispute. How would you apply MOS:BIOALTNAME in this dispute? Nemov (talk) 20:22, 10 October 2025 (UTC)

Third Opinion

This is late but alas. His name in Kabyle should absolutely be included, not simply for information purposes (though that is a major factor) but also to honor his Kabyle heritage. Him being of Algerian origin subjects him to erasure of his Amazigh identity Pikeuo (talk) 13:14, 15 April 2026 (UTC)