Talk:Women's fencing

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• ... that the most well known 17th century female fencer, Julie d'Aubigny, fenced 3 noblemen in the same evening after kissing the lady they were courting?

• Source: "Maupin, d'Aubigny (c. 1670–1707) | Encyclopedia.com". www.encyclopedia.com. Retrieved 2026-08-24.

• • Reviewed: [[]]

5x expanded by Olivia Swanson (talk). Number of QPQs required: 0. Nominator has fewer than 5 past nominations.

Olivia Swanson (talk) 19:00, 31 August 2026 (UTC).

• The page Women's fencing should be linked in the nomination. Some of the information on the page is unsourced and some of the references may not be reliable (such as Encyclopedia Britannica and LeonPaul.com). I don't think Encyclopedia.com is a reliable source for the hook, are there better sources you can find? Edward056686 (talk) 20:12, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing out the lack of link for Women's fencing, here is a corrected version:

• ... that the most well-known 17th-century female fencer, Julie d'Aubigny, fenced three noblemen in the same evening after kissing the lady they were courting?

Having looked through the article again, I'm unsure what unreferenced content you meant, as it seems to me that almost every sentence has an inline citation, but if you can point out what you mean, I'll be happy to find a reference.

As to Encyclopedia Britannica and Leon Paul, the former is an extremely rigorous academic source which is written by experts and has been cited on wikipedia many times. The latter is also mainly written by established fencing experts and fencers, and so is also a reliable source for fencing matters.

The source from encyclopedia.com was written by Dr David S. Newhall, Distinguished Professor of History Emeritus, who is more than qualified to speak on the topic, and I am not sure why you would consider him unreliable, aside from the fact that encylopedia.com is also thoroughly vetted and checked. If you are still unsatisfied with encylopedia.com however, this book or two websites can substitue it:

https://archive.org/details/lamaupin1670170700leta/page/90/mode/2up?q=trois (p.91)

https://interlude.hk/lesbian-diva-swordswoman-julie-daubigny-aka-mademoiselle-maupin/

https://allthatsinteresting.com/julie-daubigny. Olivia Swanson (talk) 21:43, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

At the time of my review, there were five separate paragraphs that ended without a citation. I see that you edited those before you replied here, so I don’t know why you said “I'm unsure what unreferenced content you meant”.

An article about history should not cite sources like Encyclopedia.com, Encyclopedia Britannica, or AllThatsInteresting. These websites are sometimes of poor quality when it comes to historical topics, even though they have editors. There are many books, reliable journals, and magazines that could be used. The bibliography in the article currently looks better than the inline references.

The book cited for the hook looks fine, thank you for finding that. The only other problem with the hook is that the source should be the same in the nomination and in the article.

Next, I’ll do a spot check of the sources in the article and that should conclude this review. Edward056686 (talk) 16:25, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

My addition of citations was a day or two later, as I only realised you were correct after having responded to you.

I understand what you mean about Encylopedia.com and Encylopedia Britannica, and I have just now either replaced or added alternative citations for where those sources are used.

I am not familiar with the bibliography of the article as I did not write it myself, but I could not find a source in it that was relevant to the hook.

I have added the book citation to the article now.

Let me know if there's anything else I need to do! Olivia Swanson (talk) 15:29, 05 September 2026 (UTC)

Sorry it took me so long to do a spot check but it looks great, and your recent expansions really improved the page. You should consider making it a Good Article if you have the time. The hook is interesting and cited. No apparent copyright violations and the page had been expanded 5x by the time of the nomination. Edward056686 (talk) 16:37, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

Consider consolidating some of the sections with Fencing

@Olivia Swanson, thank you for the amazing work you've done for this article! I've done a couple of GA reviews and was considering working on this, but after comparing both the current article and Fencing article I believe they could be re-organized where some of the sections you listed here - such as weapons and protective gear - can be moved to Fencing while you only keep those that are unique to women's fencing (Jacket and chest protector) in this article. You can use See Also template to help route readers to the Fencing page from your article for anything that's already covered there.

I'd also recommend you make a simple paragraph in Fencing about Women's Fencing, with the section hosting {{Main|page}} template pointing users to this article. Once you've made the changes, I'd be happy to pick this up for GA review to start the official GA process.

- ABehjat (talk) 20:50, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

GA review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Women's fencing/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Olivia Swanson (talk · contribs) 19:00, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

Reviewer: ABehjat (talk · contribs) 20:38, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

Hi @Olivia Swanson:

Thank you for cutting Rules and equipment back to what is specific to women's fencing.  Done

The article has a clear arc from Ms. I.33 to Tokyo 2020, and Terret & Ottogalli-Mazzacavallo (2012) gives it a strong scholarly base.

However, I'm placing the article on hold: Most of the fixes are related to OR issues: a number of sentences say more than, or something different from, the source cited. I spot-checked against Terret, Liu, HEMA Penzance, the Worcester Art Museum post, Sporting Heritage, Popular Science and the Museum of American Fencing.

For items that rest on a source I couldn't access a short quote from the relevant passage would be helpful to share to close it.

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
It is reasonably well written. a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists): It is factually accurate and verifiable, as shown by a source spot-check. a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism): It is broad in its coverage. a (major aspects): b (focused): It follows the neutral point of view policy. Fair representation without bias: It is stable. No edit wars, etc.: It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate. a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (suitable captions):
Overall: Pass/Hold/Fail: Hold

2c. Sentences the cited source doesn't carry

The review guide treats claiming something that is not stated in the referenced source as a sign of original research. For each item, please amend the sentence to match the source, or quote the passage that supports it.

1. Walpurgis - The earliest reference to women fencing and her presence remains the earliest portrayal. HEMA Penzance has one of the earliest known illustrations of a woman fencing; the Worcester Art Museum post has only Her presence remains a mystery.
2. 1552 duel - The earliest recorded duel between women. Liu gives it as one example (For example, a duel happened in 1552), and Popular Science as one of the petticoat duels that had gone on for hundreds of years. Please quote where Malleus Martialis or the Academy of Fencing Masters says "earliest", or drop it. The sentence also says the women allegedly fought but calls the duel "recorded"; please pick one.
3. Hartl - Liu has Hartl giving a demonstration during the AAU's first championships in 1888, not touring "in" the AAU. although they could not compete isn't in Liu.
4. Fencers Club - cited as an example of a women's fencing club, but the NYT headline cited next reads WOMEN MAY NOW JOIN FENCERS' CLUB. Please quote where the NYT says women's clubs joined the AFLA. The 1883 date and the Polytechnic Ladies' Fencing Club are uncited.
5. Lacaze - Terret's footnote gives the article as 'L'escrime féminine', L'escrime et le Tir, November 1922, not "L'orientation de l'escrime". The English is Terret's translation, so please cite Terret unless you've read Lacaze.
6. 1922 congress - the article says the 1921 reasoning was faulty as the IOC had deferred the matter to the FIE at the request of the Marquis de Chasseloup‐Laubat. Terret gives a different reason: the argument was not valid since IOC members had omitted to mention explicitly that it resulted from their refusal to increase the number of events. Chasseloup-Laubat only was able to gain agreement that the question of women fencers would be discussed during a meeting of the FIE at a later date.
7. 1929, Mende - women in Switzerland were eager to fence épée. Terret has that Mende had previously initiated epee events for women in his country; that wording would work, unless the 1929 minutes say "eager".
8. 1935 skirts - Sporting Heritage carries the safety concern, but places it in 1924, and has Guinness among the first in breeches by 1932. Neither held source has the FIE abolishing skirts in 1935 for that reason. Terret carries 1935 with a social reason (Social conventions and prejudices will no longer prevent them being worn in fencing). Please quote the Australian Fencing Federation for the 1935 safety link, or follow Terret.
9. 1965 target area - delineated by a dark-colored sash and in order to protect women's modesty: Sporting Heritage has a length of black piping sewn across the jacket and no reason. Please quote the AFLA rulebook (p. 39) or Leon Paul for the sash and the modesty reason.
10. 1978 pentathlon - Terret has women's épée in UIPM world cups since 1978 and world championships since 1981. Terret's source for this is Revue Olympique no. 192 (October 1983), Le pentathlon moderne, le biathlon et l'Olympisme, which looks like the French edition of the Grut article you cite. Please quote Grut for the 1978 world championships.
11. Title IX - due in part to Title IX (US épée, 1981), and the lead's such restrictions were gradually abolished, due to legal changes such as Title IX. Terret doesn't mention Title IX. It cites the US women's épée events only as one of the reasons the FIE reopened the question in 1983. Please drop the causal links, or quote a source that makes them (WP:SYNTH).
12. 2004 sabre - 59-23 FIE vote. Terret describes several votes: Havana in December 2001 (with 50 votes in favour, 23 against and two abstentions), then Antalya and Lisbon in 2002. Please quote Le Monde (2002) for 59-23, and say which congress it was.
13. Sabre quote - despite opinions that: Terret quotes this from Le Monde (1998), and the English is Terret's translation of the French. Please name Le Monde in the sentence (WP:INTEXT), and cite Terret for the English unless you've read Le Monde.
14. Governance - world championships for women since 1929. Terret calls 1929 the ladies' European championships, which was actually more of a world championship. "European (in effect world) championships" would fix it.
15. Rules and equipment - darts in order to accommodate a larger bust: Sporting Heritage has only tailored fits. The rules for women's fencing are identical ... is uncited.

These check out: Terret carries the 39-22 vote, Barding's 1921 win, the 1932 Copenhagen team event, the 1957-58 request and 1960 team foil, the 1983 commission, 1988-89 épée, the 1996 results and the 1998 Seoul decision. The Museum of American Fencing carries the 1912 women's foil champion.  Done

2b. Sources

These claims rest only on student work or self-published pages (WP:RS, WP:SPS). Please replace the source, or say why it is reliable for the claim:

1. Liu (2022) - the author note describes an American national award-winning junior journalist, and the paper dates the épée and sabre Olympic debuts to 1996 and 2000. It is the only source for two claims: women's duelling in the higher echelons of society (History para.1) and the growth after Title IX. Its other uses are co-cited with thearma.org (Hartl) and the NYT (1988 sabre).
2. Foil as the acceptable weapon - Hirsch (an undergraduate thesis, WP:SCHOLARSHIP) and two Academy of Fencing Masters blog posts. Terret carries it: foils were more in keeping with standards of acceptability for women than epees.
3. 1552 duel - Malleus Martialis and the Academy of Fencing Masters (both club blogs).
4. Monstery and Jaguarina - Martial Arts New York only.
5. 1910 England-Belgium match - Cambridge Day only; the citation gives the author as "admin".
6. Metternich fabrication - Matthey on Academia.edu. Please say whether it has been published.

2d. Close paraphrasing

These follow Terret's wording. Please rewrite them in your own words:

1. in 1983 the Executive Committee of the FIE asked its Regulation Committee to reflect upon the issue - identical to Terret.
2. As there were not enough recently published reports, and questioning found that female epee fencing was flourishing with 23 nations - Terret: Faced with a lack of recently published reports ... female epee fencing was flourishing with 23 nations already involved.
3. due to the poor economic state of the world of fencing, rather than ethical concerns - Terret: namely the poor economic state of the world of fencing - and not for ethical ones.

1. Prose and MoS

1. Unclear sentences (1a):
   • individual bouts are typically up to 15, and team matches are made up of 9 bouts to five: please say what the numbers count.
   • In the 1996 Summer Olympics in Atlanta, women's épée - both individual and team - with Laura Flessel-Colovic winning ... has no main verb.
   • Other fencing schools accepting female students were quick to follow in the 19th century, such as Thomas Monstery: Monstery was a teacher, not a school.
   • I've fixed few typos in the article, so no concerns there.
2. Lead (1b) doesn't summarise Rules and equipment, Governance or Analyses.
3. Words to watch (1b): a 'landmark' law, prestigious (twice), Ever at the 'avant-garde', 'renowned' foilist, After much deliberation, 'exponentially' increased (Liu: growing 'dramatically'), and as of today (MOS:RELTIME).

3b. Focus

1. Analyses - please drop the standard deviation values, action percentages and bout times, and keep each study's finding.

4. Neutrality

1. Metternich duel - is notable for being the first is in Wikipedia's voice, and the next sentence calls it a fabrication. modern day historians often rests on one paper. Please attribute both: Popular Science reported it as the first "emancipated" one; Matthey argues it was fabricated.

6b. Captions

1. Walpurgis - Walpurgis depicted fencing a knight. HEMA Penzance has her fighting the priest.

Some suggestions not required for GA

• Helene Mayer appears only in a caption. Terret discusses her, and your Bibliography lists a book about her.
• Elek's objection could give her reason; Terret has allowing women to take mindless risks with regards to the danger of epees.
• "Further reading" is the usual heading for uncited works (WP:FURTHER), and History/Modern could merge into one History section.
• The Simple English links ([[:simple:...]]) for Millicent Hall sends the reader to another wiki mid-sentence. I'd recommend plain text instead if you cannot link to the English Wiki. Otherwise, a red link is fine to help encourage someone to build the page if you'd like to make it clickable. This is also a great project to include as part of Women in Red Project

Let me know if you have any questions!

- ABehjat (talk) 00:33, 3 October 2026 (UTC)