Talk:Wanli Emperor

Disputed neutrality

The current article presents a stereotyped and one-sided view of the Wanli Emperor as "unmotivated and avaricious" without considering the greater picture, in particular, the inherent problems of the Ming governing system and the difficulties faced by an Emperor confined to the Forbidden City, educated, cloistered and frustrated by a fractious and moralistic bureaucracy. The view presented in this article is heavily slanted towards the Fairbanks article cited. For a different view, I suggest the book "1587: A Year of No Significance" by Ray Huang. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bathrobe (talk • contribs)

A note on the Chinese historiographical pattern of praising founding emperors at the expense of their predecessors (who were often characterized in stock terms like "unmotivated and avaricious") might at least alert readers to the origins of this story, which bears a questionable relation to the historical Wanli emperor and emerges from a different set of rules than encyclopedia history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.249.103.94 (talk)

The article presents a fairly standard narrative of the Wanli Emperor. Actually Fairbank's narratve is based on Ray Huang, who is very negative in his appraisal of the Wanli Emperor. I have consequently removed the POV tag.--Niohe 05:05, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Belated response: I've read 1587, and it does not adopt the 'very negative' appraisal of the Wanli Emperor that Niohe claims it does. Unless there is other material by Ray Huang that does. 1587 is essentially a condemnation of Chinese traditional governance based on Confucianism and tries to excuse a lot of what Wanli did.

Bathrobe 08:32, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I have reinstated the POV tag. This may or may not be a "fairly standard narrative," but it is not supported by Huang's account, and language such as "was an unmotivated and avaricious ruler who allowed his country to fall apart" is an opinion that would need to be attributed to a specific, reputable scholarly work. Dactylion (talk) 22:28, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Huang's book actually blames most of the problem on the mandarinate, with Wanli cast as a semi-victim. I'm looking for my copy so I can expand on that. Wanli seems to be almost a Chinese version of the English King Richard III - vilified without actually deserving it. The fact that he feuded with the mandarinate plays a part, too - after all, they were the ones writing the histories. I've removed or rephrased some of the really bad negative stuff, and hope to find more material that's at least neutral.Shandong44 (talk) 20:00, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

The interwiki links to his two consorts leads to two later years Qing empresses, which obviously could not have been his consorts. BTW I agree that this article is far from neutral. Example, this sentence "this personal rebellion against the bureaucracy was not only bankruptcy but treason." Also this article is suffering from unnecessary repetitions, missing links (the “Middle Reign“ section and “Late Reign” have none) and missing information (like stating that “The Yang Yin Long rebelled” without explaining what is The Yang Yin Long). Avihu 17:03, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

By the way, who the heck is Tony Wanli? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.29.0.150 (talk) 18:05, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Translation of posthumous name

What on earth is the deal with translating "Emperor" in the posthumous name and nothing else? We should give the full Chinese posthumous name, and then give the English translation. john k (talk) 22:26, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

What? No listing of a myriad of spellings for this guy's name? No use in this English version of Wikipedia of alphabet characters that don't exist in the English alphabet? You're just going to leave it at Wanli? How very, very un-Wiki-like. Where's the controversy, where's the drama, the recondite references? For shame! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.111.87.104 (talk) 18:53, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Inline citations

Most of the material seems to be covered in Mote's Imperial China: 900-1800, so I will try to insert some inline citations. I'm also trying to get the 7th volume of Cambridge History of China, which might have material that doesn't agree with the Yale "party line."Shandong44 (talk) 20:00, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

GA review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Wanli Emperor/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Min968 (talk · contribs) 14:54, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

Reviewer: Векочел (talk · contribs) 13:09, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

I will add some comments shortly. Векочел (talk) 13:09, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

• "However, open criticism was rare until his father's death in 1577." Was Zhang Juzheng's father a notable figure in Ming China?
  • Chang had previously been attacked in 1575 and 1576 by two individual censors who had independently spoken their own minds. In 1577, his father died. Dynastic laws and ritual norms required him to relinquish his office and to observe a period of mourning at home for twenty-seven months. It was suggested that Hsu Chieh be recalled to take charge of the grand secretariat. At this point, either at Chang's own suggestion or with his connivance, his supporters in the palace prevailed on the Wan-li emperor, then only fourteen years old, to respond to the grand secretary's request for mourning leave with an imperial rescript stating that his service was indispensable, that in this particular case he was to be exempted from the full requirement. While not without precedent, this imperial decision nevertheless caused an uproar at court. Officials of ministerial rank demanded Chang's removal. Members of the literary-educational branch of the government, as a group, called on Chang at his own residence to confront him on this ethical-ritual issue. Huang (1988). p. 526
• "He was eventually forced to resign in 1591 due to his approach to the succession issue". Can you tell me what Huang 1988, pp. 528–529 says was Shen's approach to the issue of succession?
  • His successor, Shen Shih-hsing, another man who had accepted Chang Chii-cheng's patronage, went a step further. He persuaded the emperor to discontinue Chang's control of documents, offering the convincing argument that the local offices of government were not staffed to operate as efficiently as demanded. Shen was in office for more than eight years, yet his effort at reconciliation and compromise got nowhere. Nor was the emperor's attempt at personal rule successful. In 1591 Shen was forced to retire owing to the lack of confidence in him expressed by the majority of the courtiers when he represented them as a mediator on the succession issue.
• "On the fifth day after the emperor's speech, the officials were informed that the eunuchs had died while confined within the palace." I believe this had come up in a previous review, but could you identify the cause of the eunuchs' deaths?
  • On the fifth day after the emperor's audience, both eunuchs in question were reported to have died while confinedwithin the palace. Huang (198). p.555
• "In the last decade of the Wanli Emperor's reign, the spineless bureaucrat Fang Congzhe led the Grand Secretariat". Could you think of a different synonym for spineless?
  • Done.
• "The years 1570–1620 were relatively warm, especially in winter, with an average temperature one degree higher than the previous half century." Which system of units are these degrees in?
  • 1520-1570. This was a wetter and relatively cold period, but toward the end of the period the winters grew warmer. There were droughts in the Yangtze region, but floods both to its north and south. In 1528 there were major droughts in Chekiang, Shansi, Shensi, and Hu-pei; the year can be counted as the most serious drought during the whole Ming period. In 1568 there was a major drought in Fukien, and generally bad conditions prevailed in the Northern Metropolitan Region (Pei Chih-li or simply Ching-shih), while 1569 was, nationwide, an extremely wet year. The average temperature was 1.5 degrees centigrade colder than at present.

• • 1570-1620. This was a relatively warm period, especially during the winters, but frost was experienced during the springs, which nonetheless became increasingly warmer. As a whole, the period became drier, although floods occurred in many regions; 1613 was a year of nationwide flooding. In 1585, the great floodings of the North China Plain occurred. These were followed in 1586 by one of the great epidemics described by Dunstan. Average temperatures were one-half a degree centigrade lower than at present. At the end of the period, in the 1610s, there were droughts in Shansi, Fukien, and Shantung; most serious, however, was the nationwide drought of 1589. Heijdra (1998). p. 427
• "Over the last seven years of the Ming period, there has been a devastating drought." Could you specify the years?
• "In the 1570s and 1580s, Wang Shizhen (王世貞) held the esteemed position of literary arbiter and most respected critic of Ming China." Does the source mention how he criticized the Ming dynasty?
  • At the beginning of the Wanli period, the dominant voice in poetry was that of Wang Shizhen, the most important of the Seven Late Masters (hou qizi). Wang Shizhen foreshadowed some of the innovations of the Yuan brothers, most particularly in his openness to poetic models outside the High Tang and in his increasing emphasis on the expressive potential of poetry. Although he himself was strongly associated with the Revivalists, he urged an expanded canon that included mid-Tang and Song poets like Bai Juyi and Su Shi, who were admired by the Yuan brothers and scorned by most of the Revivalists. Wang Shizhen liked to use the term "native sensibility" (xingling), which came to be the hallmark of the Yuan brothers' Gongan School. Lu (2010), pp. 85–86
• "During the Song dynasty, it was rare for someone to have a library with ten thousand juan". Could you please provide a translation or an explanation of what a juan is?
  • @Векочел: Done. Min968 (talk) 05:17, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

Векочел (talk) 22:45, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

• Thanks for the updates @Min968:. I have made a few edits myself to clarify some things. I will be passing this as a good article. Векочел (talk) 06:04, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Peer review

Wanli Emperor

I am listing this article for peer review to identify any significant issues before nominating it for FA status. Any constructive comments, suggestions, or feedback on the article's content, structure, sourcing, prose, or compliance with FA criteria would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. Min968 (talk) 14:34, 23 June 2026 (UTC)

Comments from Jaguarnik

Sources

For the most part the sources look good. There are a few sources that may cause issues with your FAC nomination:

• Theobald, Ulrich (17 January 2014). "Ming Shenzong 明神宗, the Wanli Emperor 萬曆". ChinaKnowledge.de. Theobald and ChinaKnowledge.de should be wikilinked, otherwise it looks like a generic blog/not a trustworthy source.
• Zhao, Xu (20 May 2017). "The eternal emperor's road from glory to ashes". China Daily. Per WP:CHINADAILY "China Daily may be used, cautiously and with good editorial judgment, as a source for the position of the Chinese authorities and the Chinese Communist Party; as a source for the position of China Daily itself; as a source for facts about non-political events in mainland China, while noting that (a) China Daily's interpretation of those facts is likely to contain political spin, and (b) China Daily's omission of details from a story should not be used to determine that such details are untruthful; and, with great caution, as a supplementary (but not sole) source for facts about political events of mainland China." Would the source fall under one of these categories?
• "China's Tusi Sites Listed as World Heritage". CRIENGLISH.com. Xinhua. 4 July 2015. Link to China Radio International
• "Dingling Tomb". China Internet Information Center. 12 February 2003. Link to China Internet Information Center

Prose: Looks strong. Only a few minor comments.

• and Zhu Changluo later succeeded his father as the Taichang Emperor maybe better to put the specific year in which this happened.
• and a younger brother, Zhu Yiliu (朱翊鏐; 1568–1614), who was created Prince of Lu in 1571. -> who was made Prince of Lu
• the Wanli Emperor visited several mausoleums near Beijing Stylistic choice: visited the Ming tombs, a collection of Ming-era mausoleums near Beijing. I don't insist on it, but otherwise it can be a WP:EASTEREGG problem.
• This was not unprecedented, but criticism of disrespect for parents was widespread. -> but he was widely criticized for disrespecting his parents.
• Zhang then enforced an extraordinary self-evaluation of all high-ranking officials, what exactly does self-evaluation mean here
• Since the 1990s, the excavation has been criticized in China for its unprofessional methods...numerous finds—including the remains of the Emperor and his consorts—were destroyed during the Cultural Revolution. From this it's not clear if the unprofessional methods and the loss of the finds are connected.

Good luck on your FAC nomination! Jaguarnik (talk) 10:50, 1 July 2026 (UTC)

All done. Min968 (talk) 10:19, 4 July 2026 (UTC)