Talk:Unfriendly countries list

Suggest name change

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved to Unfriendly countries list. The proposed title is not supported by policy and has a slight consensus against it. Moved to sentence case as suggested. (closed by non-admin page mover) – MaterialWorks 11:01, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

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Unfriendly Countries List → Russia's unfriendly countries list - Other countries have a list of unfriendly countries - eg Lithuania (url=https://www.lrt.lt/en/news-in-english/19/1658381/lithuania-puts-russia-belarus-on-its-list-of-hostile-countries) and Belarus also has its own list. Ânes-pur-sàng (talk) 23:25, 22 August 2023‎ (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 11:29, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support per WP:RECOGNIZABLE. I think there is a case for the Russian list to be the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, but I personally think it would be better served as a WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT with a more recognizable title. estar8806 (talk) ★ 18:18, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
• Partial Oppose—while it's true that other nations have their own respective "hostile nations" list, Russia's list is arguably the most recognizable and notable. Other countries that have their own list are not as prominent in comparison. I recommended that until there are other Wiki pages about other countries' "Unfriendly Countries List", such as Lithuania's or perhaps Belarus (per Estar8806), it shouldn't be moved. - MateoFrayo (talk) 14:05, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Partial Oppose-- I agree with MateoFrayo -- Iri1388 (talk) 21:13, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Oppose Agree with MateoFraeyo - with other respective lists not even having articles of their own, clarifying language in the title is unnecessary. --haha169 (talk) 08:13, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

• Weak support per WP:ASTONISH. How does the title get across that this is related to Russia in any way? If I just saw the title, I'd be confused and would have to click on the article to have anywhere near an idea of what it's about. Sure, it defines it in the first sentence, but that doesn't mean it's not ASTONISHing. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 03:43, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

  I don't think the purpose of ASTONISH is to apply to titles if the subject of the article is so named. Supercock for example is an article, not Supercock (film). ASTONISH's purpose is to write prose in a straightforward, non-provacative way, not govern article names.

  The applicable policy here is WP:PRECISE, which says that absent clear naming criteria (which this article lacks), to unambiguously define to scope of the article without getting more precise than that. Since the article's name is literally just the name of the Russian regulation, adding "Russian" to the name is "getting more precise".--haha169 (talk) 08:34, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support per WP:RECOGNIZABLE, precision, and current title is case of WP:ASTONISH. —usernamekiran (talk) 08:35, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

  I don't think WP:RECOGNIZABLE applies—if anything, the "Unfriendly Countries List" is more recognizable as the list released by the Russian government rather than a list of each nation's unfriendly countries list. The other WP pages make a fair point, but make sure you're not being over-the-board precise either (Which would be the case if you add "Russian" to the only notable "Unfriendly Countries List"). - MateoFrayo (talk) 21:52, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

• Comment: this should be moved to sentence case regardless.~TPW 17:49, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

  I would consider "Unfriendly Countries List" to be a proper noun as it is the name of the list. Proper nouns like Entity List are in title case as well. --haha169 (talk) 20:20, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

  Here's a recent mention in a reliable source, where the term is not capitalized. ~TPW 20:44, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

  You're right. Most of the reliable sources refer to it in sentence case. --haha169 (talk) 05:05, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

  Proper nouns have to be single words. SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:50, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose Yes, there are other countries that have this, but Russia's is considerably more notable and more likely to be recognized. Plus, the proposed new title just doesn't sound right to my ears. 47.227.95.73 (talk) 05:04, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

• Alternative Unfriendly countries list. Per WP:TITLEDAB, when no actual conflict in article titles exists, WP:CONCISE takes precedence over unnecessary precision. This also appears to be the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC even if other articles actually existed. This list is descriptive and not reasonably considered a proper noun. Per WP:NCCAPS, MOS:CAPS and other comments re capitalisation in sources, it should be written in sentence case. Cinderella157 (talk) 09:48, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

  Agree with this --haha169 (talk) 19:10, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Support per nom. Decpatilaise, as it is not a proper name, or a composition title. Include “Russia” and Russia is central to the definition of the topic. SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:53, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Your comment does not address the arguments made above about how adding "Russia" is overly precise and against established article title guidelines. "Russia unfriendly countries list" is also not the common name of the topic, so adding the precision is further unnecessary. --haha169 (talk) 20:41, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

“Russia” is not overly precise, but is essential for the title to be meaningful, especially on noting that the current is not a proper name, a proper noun, or a composition title, should be sentence case, and be recognised for a descriptive title. SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:54, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Russia's list is the primary topic of all "unfriendly country lists" and is the only one with established notability to have a Wikipedia article. The five criteria of article titles is quite clear that article titles should unambiguously identify a topic without being overly precise. There are no other "unfriendly country lists" to distinguish from that it becomes necessary to add a country name. Additionally, neither reliable news sources nor Russian government sources generally identify the list as the "Russian unfriendly countries list". At most they make references to Russia adding to "their" list, or the government announced additions to "Russia's" list.

It's also not clear to me why not being a proper noun means the name must have a country name as a qualifier. There is no policy that states this. There is an article for crepe, which is not a proper noun, not French crepe. Same with Entity List, not U.S. Entity List. --haha169 (talk) 02:28, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

primary topic of all "unfriendly country lists" is a ridiculous concept. SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:00, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

No less ridiculous than the concept of a primary topic at all. It's not like every country has an unfriendly countries list. Russia basically invented it, and a small number of other countries copied the idea but without the level of exposure or coverage as the original. --haha169 (talk) 15:54, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

Disagree. Forcing the PrimaryTopic theory onto every recent descriptive phrase is much more ridiculous. And it’s translated, and on the native language Wikipedia it is already disambiguated, and in sentence case.

PrimaryTopic makes sense in many cases, particularly where there is a worldwide, or at least this-language-wide dominant meaning for a term (less so for phrases), and then there are other obscure uses of the same term.

Just because PrimaryTopic sometimes makes sense doesn’t mean that PrimaryTopic has to always be the driving force for technically minimalist titles.

This article is about something about Russia more than it is about the countries on the list. Russia belongs in the title, unquestionably if you have any sense of the purpose of a title. SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:33, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended Protection

Why's this article under Extended Protection? - MateoFrayo (talk) 13:11, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Probably because people kept on making unsourced edits to add countries that aren't on the list. That and also a lot of (most likely unintentional) vandalism that messed up the table formatting. --haha169 (talk) 02:01, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Ah KK, gotcha. - MateoFrayo (talk) 18:06, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

List

The lede says there are 49 states in that list, but the list further down the page only lists 30. Is there a reason for that ? Alien333 (talk) 20:11, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

@Alien333, The European Union is included in this list, meaning that all EU member states are collectively included. But this list includes some EU members that were added to this list by Russia individually. -- Iri1388 (talk) 20:29, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for the info. Alien333 (talk) 20:31, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

States Russia does not recognise Taiwan

Taiwan is not recognised as a country by any major power. The way this is written makes it seems that this is specific to Russia. It is not. Needs to be updated to explain that, or show the list as published by Russia. 2A00:23C6:A119:D101:C94F:9913:B539:A8D3 (talk) 00:03, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

This is about Russia's list. Who cares about other countries? 97.133.167.45 (talk) 01:59, 14 October 2024 (UTC)