Talk:Sir David Mathew

Untitled

Very interesting figure in history: he was 6 foot 8 and saved the life of a king of England.

Amazing to look into the face of my grandfather many times over. Thank you for posting the photos. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.97.213.146 (talk) 03:08, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

John R. Boots

This was the text before I started to edit:

Extended content

Sir David Mathew "was one of the most distinguished men of his age, and was made Grand Standard-Bearer of England by King Edward IV, whose life he saved at the battle of Towton, on Palm Sunday, March 29, 1461". His tomb, ornamented with his full-length figure in alabaster, in St. Mary's Chapel, of the venerable Cathedral of Llandaff, (which has ever since been the property and burial-place of the family of (Mathew) is one of the most interesting extant monuments of that time. An accurate description of the various monuments of the family in this Chapel may be found in Browne-Willis's "A Survey of the Cathedral Church of Llandaff", 1718. Sir David "was slain by the Turbervilles in a riot at Neath. He had a grant of 2,232 acres of land from Henry VI., the reversion of Caneton, and from William Earl of Pembroke lands at St. Fagan's and in Pentyrch. Buried and has a fine altar tomb at Llandaff. He m. Wenllian, d. of Sir Geo. Herbert of Chapel, sister of Gwilim Llwyd, who m. Wenllian David of Rhiwperra."

This is the text appears to be taken from

• Boots, John R. (compiler) (1970), The Mat(t)hews family: an anthology of Mathews lineages {{citation}}: Text "page 15" ignored (help)

either directly or by copying an intermediate source such as:

• http://www.users.qwest.net/~butchmatt/Mathewhtml/notes.html
• Mathew of Llandaff - Mathews Family History Exchange (PDF), pp. 18–19
• http://www.douglashistory.co.uk/famgen/getperson.php?personID=I376023&tree=tree1

As it turns out John R. Boots put his paragraph together by copying and quoting two older sources:

• Burke, John (1847), Burke's Genealogical and Heraldic History of the Landed Gentry, vol. 2, H. Colburn, p. 844
• Clark, George T. (1886), Limbus Patrum Morganiae et Glamorganiae, London{{citation}}: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link)

Burk in turn quotes and cites

• Willis, Browne (1718), An survey of the Cathedral-Church of Landaff, London: R. Gosling, p. 25

Both Burke (1847) and Browne (1718) are available via Google books and can be used verify the information directly. I could not find an online version of Clark (1816) so that information will have to be cited via WP:SAYWHEREYOUREADIT (in Boots (1970)).

Burke (1847)

Sir David Mathew, of Llandaff, eldest son of the foregoing, was one of the most distinguished men of his age, and was made Grand Standard-Hearer of England by King Edward IV., whose life he is said to have saved (though he was far advanced in years) at the battle of Towton, on Palm Sunday, 1461. His tomb, ornamented with his full-length figure in alabaster, in St. Mary's Chapel, of the venerable Cathedral of Llandaff, (which has ever since been the property and burial-place of the family of Mathew) is one of the most interesting extant monuments of that time. An accurate description of the various monuments of the family in this chapel may be found in Willis's Cathedral of Llandaff, in the British Museum. Sir David Mathew left, by Gwendaline, his wife, dau. of Sir George Herbert, Knt. of Chappell, seven sons, from whom the various subsequent branches of this family derived.

Browne (1718)

At the upper End, within this Division, to the North-East, lyes a Knight in Armour, upon an Altar-Monument, in Alabaster well wrought: At his Head is a Man in Armour bearing his Shield : On the Side are six Images, five of Men, and one of a Woman, all bearing Escocheons. This is said to be the Monument of David Matthew the Great, who was Standard-Bearer to Edward IV, and was murther'd at Neath (a maritime Town in this County, which is the old Nidum in the Itinerary of Antoninus) by some of the Turberviles, with whom he was at Variance.

Given that Boots strings together two quotes with little to creativity, and that which he showed (such as a killing during a riot should be dropped) I think it acceptable to modify the paragraph cite the original sources and drop most of the quotation marks (as the quoted text not under copyright) and simply attribute the sources at the bottom of the page. -- PBS (talk) 17:06, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Landholdings

I have moved some of the lead to here

part of the lead

Sir David is the first of the family to have used the modern style of Welsh surname, "Mathew", having discontinued use of the traditional Welsh patronymic "ap Mathew", meaning "son of Mathew". This conformed with contemporary English usage. The surname was spelled consistently with only one "t" on the early 16th.c. tombs of his two grandsons in Llandaff Cathedral. Certain of his direct descendants centuries later adopted the spelling "Mathews", and "Matthews", whilst others, most notably the family of the Earls Landaff retained the old spelling into the 19th.c. His residence was at Llandaff Castle, held in fee farm from the Bishops of Llandaff, the ruined strongly-fortified gatehouse of which survives at the southern end of the Cathedral Close.

Notes

It is related to the "Landholdings" section below and I think that the issue Mathew is better covered in the footnote in the lead and is directly backed up with a source. This reading of a primary source to extract the different types of surname is WP:OR unless it can be backed up with a reliable secondary source.

I have moved the section "Landholdings" from the article to here as it seems to be a dump of a primary source with little to no effort to format it properly and there is no expert cometary about who exactly these Mathews are related to the subject of the biography. If someone can make scene of them then please summarise the records and place them into the biography section in the appropriate place.

Landholdings

The following record is contained within John Matthew's "Cardiff Records" (1903): (Cardiff Library, Phillips MS: "A breviat with notes Conteyninge all the Lord-shippes and Manners within the Countie of Glamorgan,"&c., "collectid & gatherid for the private vse of the gent" now atendinge vpon the Right Honf'able Henry Earle of Penbroke my good Lo: and Master. Anno Dni: 1596." Dedicated "To the worshipfulle Thomas Morgan' Esquire Stewarde in house to the Right Hon'able Henry Earle of Penbroke health and happines," by Rice Lewis): "Thomas Mathew esquire maried Catherin doughter and sole heire of Morgan ll'n of the Radir esquire. 4th in descent from him is Edmunde Mathew Esquire that hath Radyr wherein standeth theire cheefe Dwellinge house, that hath a lardge parke of fallowe deere, belonginge to yt hard by the house, with demeasnes and coppiehould landes for iij lives. The Lord is Patron and the valuac'on is [blank.]

Landaphe and the castle of the same which they held in fee farme of the Buishop of Landaphe, and therein is the cathedrall church of Landaphe, standinge upon the River of Taffe. William Mathew esquire hath Landaphe wherein standeth his cheefe dwellinge house but as I take it yt is holden in soccage of the Buishoppe of Landaphe for the tyme beinge. Yt hath lardge demeasne which butteth to the River of Taffe, from the house alongest the said River allmost Cardif bridge. Placesturton Joyneth to his demeasne of Landaphe, and butteth to the west p'te of Cardif bridge, and hath demeasne free tenaunts and coppy hould for iij lives but hath no church for it standeth in the parishe of Landaphe as the house doeth".

Notes

Here is the source:

• Matthews, John Hobson (Archivist to the Corporation of Cardiff), ed. (1903), "Phillips MS", Cardiff Records: Being Materials for a History of the County Borough From Earliest Times, vol. 4, Cardiff, p. 136{{citation}}: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link)

As can be seem the format of page 136 is nothing like the collapsed section above, and does not contain any secondary source to say that the people referred to on that page are related to the subject of this biography. Without that secondary source these primary sources are of no use of this article. -- PBS (talk) 18:48, 17 December 2012 (UTC)