Talk:Science of Identity Foundation/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Association with Tulsi Gabbard - Section content

The RfC mentions that sectioin content be reverted to the version before the RfC, except for the deletion of Tulsi Gabbard has since distanced herself from SIF.

I saved the last version as below:

From :

Association to Tulsi Gabbard and her family

SIF received a great deal of media coverage when some columnists found that Tulsi Gabbard had been associated with the SIF. During her childhood, Tulsi Gabbard was influenced by SIF and considered Butler as her mentor. In 2015, she acknowledged Butler as her guru in a video statement for an ISKCON anniversary event. Her father, Mike Gabbard, a Hawaii State Senator, has also been associated with SIF and his wife, Carol Gabbard, was the treasurer of the SIF. Tulsi Gabbard has since distanced herself from SIF. While she called Butler her guru in a 2015 video statement for an ISKCON event, she commented, in 2017: “I’ve had many different spiritual teachers” and called Butler "essentially like a Vaishnava Hindu pastor". A 2015 Honolulu Civil Beat review of records, internet postings and interviews has found "no evidence that Tulsi Gabbard is — or ever was — a Butler devotee".

Thanks. RogerYg (talk) 05:14, 4 March 2025 (UTC) RogerYg (talk) 05:14, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

Hi Humanengr (talk), I think we may update the section per WP:NPOV and WP:BLPBALANCE, after the RfC has been closed with vague guidance. Thanks. RogerYg (talk) 05:17, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

So you want to take up the dispute that resulted in the RfC? I suggest you rethink your approach. Sanctions apply. --Hipal (talk) 17:56, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

I am only following the guidance provide in RfC closure, and not disputing the RfC outcome. I accept the outcome, which is to remove the phrase that "Tulsi Gabbard distanced herself from SIF". Thanks. RogerYg (talk) RogerYg (talk) 10:02, 5 March 2025 (UTC)

Please note the RfC closure report below:

The essence of this in compact form is: (a) there is a consensus for the section described, (b) there is no consensus for what that section should be titled, (c) there is no consensus as to whether to include a "separation" or "distancing" statement in the section, however, the practical result may be that this should be omitted pending some future consensus since (it appears) omission was the stable version of the article.

The RfC closure guidance encourages future discussion to gain a future consensus on this issue. So, I am following the RfC guidance for developing a consensus on these issues. Thanks. RogerYg (talk) 10:07, 5 March 2025 (UTC)

You are ignoring subsequent discussion, and duplicating portions of it is disruptive. --Hipal (talk) 18:34, 5 March 2025 (UTC)

Hi Smiiikes (talk | contribs), Thanks for adding relevant balancing content, which is much needed in this section as discussed in RfC per WP:BLPBALANCE

In 2024, a spokesperson stated that Gabbard has "no affiliation with the Science of Identity Foundation" and described criticisms of Gabbard's faith as "false" and "bigoted."

I think it was wrong for other editor to revert your edit without any discussion, and you should add this important content back per WP:NPOV and WP:BLPBALANCE Thanks. 07:57, 11 March 2025 (UTC) RogerYg (talk) 07:57, 11 March 2025 (UTC)

References

Relevant content from Tulsi Gabbard article

• ...two years at a girls' school in the Philippines.

• She and her family have been associated with the Science of Identity Foundation (SIF), a Vaishnava affiliated organization. When Gabbard's parents moved to Hawaii, they had joined the circle of disciples around the founder of the SIF connected with International Society for Krishna Consciousness, She described the SIF's leader, Chris Butler, as a guide and "essentially like a Vaishnava Hindu pastor" during her early years. Butler has in return likened her to a star pupil. In 2024, the Trump transition team stated that Gabbard has "no affiliation" with the SIF. Briefly, from 1988 to 1992, Gabbard's parents owned a small vegetarian restaurant, The Natural Deli in Moiliili, Hawaii.

References

Simply following from what's at Tulsi Gabbard, focusing on her relationship with SIF, and drawing upon the other sources we currently use or have been reviewed above:

• She was raised in a SIF community.
• Her parents were long-time followers of Chris Butler and members of SIF.
• Gabbard was mostly home schooled, but attended a SIF girls' school in the Philippines.
• (Include Gabbard's description of her relationship with Butler, and Butler's description of his relationship with her.)
• Gabbard continued to have strong ties to the SIF community through her life.
• Gabbard has worked to hide her relationship with SIF.

I expect there are some main points missing, and it appears we have to qualify at least some of the information occurring after she started obscuring her relationship with SIF. --Hipal (talk) 19:23, 20 February 2025 (UTC)

I'm uncertain what we should use to introduce the section on Gabbard. Butler's description maybe, or her family ties to SIF and how she's worked to hide them. The latter would be more consistent with the Tulsi Gabbard article, and a much more prominent topic in the references. --Hipal (talk) 17:52, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

• SIF has significantly supported her career. --Hipal (talk) 01:57, 6 March 2025 (UTC)
• Some sources indicate her parents were prominent, high-level members. --Hipal (talk) 18:06, 12 March 2025 (UTC)
• I think it would be better to have a few summarizing statements rather attempting to list her many connections to SIF (education, marriages, contracts, employees, etc). --Hipal (talk) 17:04, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

Vegetarianism not notable for lead

Vegetarianism is only one of the several aspects, mentioned in only a few sources. Many articles on SIF make no mention of Vegetarianism. The article body says: The followers should practice vegetarianism and refrain from gambling, smoking, drinking alcohol, taking drugs or having "illicit sex".

Therefore, summarization per WP:LEAD should not include Vegetarianism in the lead, unless there is a consensus on the aspect. Thanks. RogerYg (talk) 03:47, 31 May 2025 (UTC)

@Hipal (talk) In my view, there is no justification of singling out vegetarianism to be included in the lead per WP:RS and WP:LEAD, unless there is a consensus for it.

Thanks. RogerYg (talk) 03:50, 31 May 2025 (UTC)

Why ping me? --Hipal (talk) 14:28, 31 May 2025 (UTC)

Because you pinged me on my TALK page about my recent edits on this page. And, removing Vegetarianism from the lead was one of the recent edits I made.

And you seem to be involved in discussing most of the edits in the lead. Thanks. RogerYg (talk) 06:14, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

Lead says: Its theology combines yoga with aspects of Gaudiya Vaishnavism, and adherents must practice vegetarianism.

While, article body says:

The followers should practice vegetarianism and refrain from gambling, smoking, drinking alcohol, taking drugs or having "illicit sex".

I think the lead should have better summarization of article body per WP:LEAD, such as follows:

Its theology combines yoga with aspects of Gaudiya Vaishnavism. The adherents have to practice vegetarianism, and avoid smoking and drinking alcohol.

Thanks. RogerYg (talk) 06:34, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

We have a lot more references to work from, and of higher quality. Is this proposal supported by any of them? --Hipal (talk) 16:31, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

I am looking at currently cited sources.

The current statement including only "Vegetarianism" for adherants is not supported by cited sources. Thanks. RogerYg (talk) 01:22, 2 June 2025 (UTC)

"hostility" in the lead (without sources)

The lead says: It (SIF) includes hostility toward Islam. But the cited sources do not have such strong language.

NY Times says deeply suspicious but that is not the same as hostility

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/27/us/politics/tulsi-gabbard-trump-national-intelligence.html

the Science of Identity Foundation, a secretive offshoot of the Hare Krishna movement vehemently opposed to same-sex relationships and abortion, and deeply suspicious of Islam.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2025/01/is-tulsi-gabbard-a-mystery/681398/

Only reference to Islam in this cited source is:

next year criticized the Democratic president’s reluctance to refer to Islamic State terrorists as “Islamic extremists.” RogerYg (talk) 03:59, 31 May 2025 (UTC)

In the article body, the source refers to Ex-follower (who alleges that group's teachings were often anti-Islamic).

A former member told The Independent the group’s teachings are virulently homophobic, often anti-Islamic and misogynist, and how they were forced to worship Butler, who is considered to be akin to a God.

Therefore, allegation by former member is per WP:RS source and not my personal commentary.

In my humble view, do not think an unnamed former follower in one source is sufficient to use strong language as "hostility". Thanks. RogerYg (talk) 04:23, 31 May 2025 (UTC)

I disagree, hostility is a fair and close synonym of "deeply suspicious". That said, I don't particularly object to a change of the text to "deep suspicion of". What do you reckon Hipal? Cambial — foliar❧ 11:04, 31 May 2025 (UTC)

• https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/who-is-chris-butler-guru-of-trump-pick-for-chief-spymaster-tulsi-gabbard-18258825 --Hipal (talk) 14:41, 31 May 2025 (UTC)

  Butler is openly hostile towards Islam. His tapes of anti-Islam propaganda have been widely circulated online. --Hipal (talk) 16:36, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

• https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/tulsi-gabbard-cult-putin-democrat-science-of-identity-b2556594.html --Hipal (talk) 14:43, 31 May 2025 (UTC)

  Those views align with tapes of Butler’s Islamaphobic teachings that have been widely circulated online. --Hipal (talk) 16:36, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

  This is the Hurley(2022) ref. --Hipal (talk) 16:10, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

  Okay, I will update it to "deep suspicion of" as agreed by Cambial — foliar❧, which is much closer to the source than "hostility" per WP:RS. Thanks. RogerYg (talk) 06:16, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

Please don't ignore sources. --Hipal (talk) 14:56, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

The currently cited source said "deeply suspicious". Thanks. RogerYg (talk) 01:20, 2 June 2025 (UTC)

It's unclear if you see the two quotes above. --Hipal (talk) 01:24, 2 June 2025 (UTC)

As per WP:TRT, Consensus exists that TRT World is reliable for statements regarding the official views of the Turkish government but not reliable for subjects with which the Turkish government could be construed to have a conflict of interest.

TRT World may not be a reliable source on this issue, as the Turkish government is likely to have a conflict of interest on issues related to Islam.

See High Quality sources NY Times and Reuters, noting Turkish government's pro-Islam and pro-Islamist relationship.

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/turkey-erdogan-education/

"Turkey’s president has said he wants to create a “pious generation” to change the nation. So the government is pouring money into schools that teach Islamic values."

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/27/opinion/turkey-istanbul-protests.html

Turkey’s drift toward Islamist extremism suggests that it could become another country that supports terrorism and threatens Israel.

Thanks. RogerYg (talk) 01:56, 2 June 2025 (UTC)

Yes, I was aware. --Hipal (talk) 15:17, 2 June 2025 (UTC)

"hostility" is from TRT World, which is not a reliable source on this topic,

while, "deep suspicion" is from a High quality source, NY Times,

Therefore, I think hostility should be replaced to deep suspicion.

NY Times says deeply suspicious but that is not the same as hostility

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/27/us/politics/tulsi-gabbard-trump-national-intelligence.html

a secretive offshoot of the Hare Krishna movement vehemently opposed to same-sex relationships and abortion, and deeply suspicious of Islam.

Thanks. RogerYg (talk) 05:00, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

"Islamophobic" is sourced above. --Hipal (talk) 15:49, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

I am fine with replacing 'hostility to Islam' with Islamophobic, as it is sourced from WP:RS reference. Thanks. RogerYg (talk) 05:02, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

Searching through the edit history...

https://bylinetimes.com/2019/10/03/islamophobic-world-view-of-tulsi-gabbards-guru-revealed-in-unearthed-recordings-can-she-still-run-for-president/ was used, but appears unreliable. --Hipal (talk) 15:56, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

Howley(2019) https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/06/tulsi-gabbard-2020-presidential-campaign.html

Stankov, Pavel (2015-03-19). "Cronyism in Hawai'i's politics". Ka Leo O Hawaii. Retrieved 2024-10-01.

Kaneya, Rui (2015-03-16). "Krishna Cult Rumors Still Dog Tulsi Gabbard". Honolulu Civil Beat. Retrieved 2024-10-01.

Hurley, Bevan (16 May 2015). "Disciples, deities and development". www.stuff.co.nz. Retrieved 2024-10-01.</ref>

The above four were all used, and need to be reviewed as to what they verify. --Hipal (talk) 16:10, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

I don't see anything in the four above.

The new changes are awkward.

We should consider expanding coverage of what ex-followers have said, properly qualified. --Hipal (talk) 17:38, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

Well, I think the changes such as adding Islamophobia are well cited with WR:RS sources, an improvement over the previous version.

Butler's teachings included condemnation of homosexuality, suspicion of Islam, Islamophobia, and skepticism of science.

I agree the statements are bit awkward in the lead, and I will try to improve grammar per WP:Readability in the lead.

Yes, we can add more details in the body per sources, but we can discuss on TALK page before any substantial change in lead. Thanks. RogerYg (talk) 03:44, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

To add to article

To add to this article: Butler's year of birth. 98.123.38.211 (talk) 04:13, 19 June 2025 (UTC)