Talk:Pseudotsuga

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External links modified

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Source for hyphenation explanation

@Peter, I do not have access to the source that you restored. Does it point to a statement of the USDA's reasoning for the use of the hyphen? If the source merely points to a passage where the hyphen is used, that does not support the statement regarding some people's (erroneous) belief that a hyphen used this way constitutes a wink and a nod to indicate that the species is not a true fir. Eric ^talk 16:54, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

From : "The hyphen in the name indicates that Douglas-firs are not true firs, not being members of the genus Abies. Most dictionaries don’t recognize this distinction, however, including Merriam-Webster and Webster’s New World College Dictionary." The "rules" behind the construction of the names used by the USDA are laid out at (though Doug firs aren't specifically mentioned with regards to hyphenation). Plantdrew (talk) 17:29, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

@Plantdrew: if you look at the American Conifer Society link you gave above, at the bottom it's attributed to Wikipedia, so must be ignored. The Biota of North America Program link matches very well the "rules" in the USDA checklist. Peter coxhead (talk) 17:42, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

BONAP forms the core of USDA PLANTS; my understanding is that John Kartesz contributed almost all of the vernacular names in PLANTS (he's acknowledge here, although vernacular names are mentioned. Plantdrew (talk) 17:54, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

The original of the reference given is available here. There isn't a specific explanation of the name, but the principles behind the formation of English names are given on pp. 14–15. Point 4 on p. 15 is the key: "Where, under well-defined usage, the terminal element of the allotted name of a genus is properly restricted to another genus, the name should be written solid or, if necessary for visual reasons, hyphened. For example, ... hazel is Corylus, so witch-hazel for Hamamelis is hyphened." These rules appear to be widely used, both in the US and elsewhere – the Botanical Society of Britain and Ireland takes the same approach. Peter coxhead (talk) 17:38, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Yes, that entire Conifer Society page is a copy of our article.

Well, Peter, now I can at last give a name to my pain: The United States Forest Service Tree and Range Plant Committee of 1953. Now all I have to do is construct a time machine to go back to each of those guys' childhood English teachers and convince them to add a hyphenation module to the lesson plans. I added some wording so it does not look like we are promoting the fantasy that hyphens should be employed as the Forest Service asserted in that handbook. Eric ^talk 18:05, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

@Eric: it's not a "fantasy", it's a standard technique employed in formulating the English names of many species in different countries, as can be clearly referenced. The technique is well motivated and well understood by botanists. I can easily add more sources explaining the approach. What is your source for denigrating it? Peter coxhead (talk) 21:50, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

My primary source is my native fluency in English. The notion that a hyphen should be used as indicated by that old Forest Service handbook is utterly false. This should be clear to anyone with a good understanding of English usage. You may want to read this discussion from 2007: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Plants/Archive14#Douglas-fir. Eric ^talk 23:14, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

I'm aware of that discussion. My native fluency in English makes it clear to me that a hyphen should be used as indicated. As WP:HYPHEN says, "Hyphens indicate conjunction". "Douglas fir" implies two separate elements: a "fir", of the kind "Douglas". "Douglasfir" or "Douglas-fir" clarifies that a single conjoined meaning is intended.

However, neither your intuition nor mine is of the slightest relevance. What matters is what relevant reliable sources say, and it's quite clear that authoritative sources of constructed English names of plants and other organisms use hyphens in this way. Peter coxhead (talk) 08:33, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

Peter, those "authoritative" sources are merely carrying forward a spelling error based on a linguistic misconception by a botanist at the Forest Service a long time ago and promulgated as policy in that 1953 handbook. It was his misguided notion that a hyphen employed in this way should indicate to a reader that the second term is inaccurate. Pure invention on his part. If you read the move discussions above on this page, and the one I linked yesterday in this section, you will find plenty of evidence that this hyphen use is not the norm, that it is an idiosyncratic mannerism employed by a niche community. My authoritative sources are dictionaries, and they do not hyphenate this term. I reiterate my view that the note regarding this hyphen use does not improve our encyclopedia article. Eric ^talk 09:49, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

Authoritative sources for constructed English names of organisms are those produced by the constructors. Genuinely common, vernacular English names are another matter. (Dictionaries regularly fail to format other organism names correctly, such as scientific names, cultivar names and selling names. This doesn't make their formatting something to be emulated.) Peter coxhead (talk) 14:53, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean by constructed names. But in any case, as I and others have pointed out, the hyphenated spelling is an aberration, does not follow English usage standards, and is in the minority across many sources. Eric ^talk 22:23, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

@Eric: there are genuinely common names, spontaneous names that were created by and used by people for the plants and animals around them that they knew and used. I find these fascinating reflections of folk history, particularly the way that some of them have been bowdlerized (e.g. cuckoo pint). Then there are made-up, constructed names, created by organizations who wanted English names for plants and animals that didn't have them, or wanted a single "standardized" English name. I'm very happy to accept the authority of dictionaries for spontaneous names. But the authority for made-up, constructed names, just like made-up scientific names, lies with the authors and organizations.
The general approach followed by USDA and the Forest Service for "Douglas-fir" has been followed by many other bodies that made up English names, namely to use a "binomial" system, as described in one of the latest such lists of which I am aware, namely made-up English names for British fungi (see ): "the majority of names in the published list are composed of two words; loosely, an adjective (for individual species) written first and a noun (for genus or distinguishing character) in second place". This often necessitates reducing two words to one (so in the BSBI list of the English names of plants, Festuca filiformis has the made-up English name "fine-leaved sheep's-fescue", where "sheep's-fescue" is used as a single word for Festuca). As I noted above, it's easy to demonstrate that this approach has been used when making up English names over a considerable period of time and in different English-speaking countries for many different groups of organisms. "Douglas-fir" isn't a one-off example, but part of a worldwide, principled approach to constructing English names for organisms.
There are variations in the degree to which hyphens are used; older systems seem to me to use hyphens more, newer ones (particularly in the US?) more likely to run the words together. So perhaps if made up now the English name of the genus would have been "Douglasfir". There's a discussion of hyphenation in made-up English bird names here.
In this particular case, what cannot be disputed, since it is well sourced, is (a) the use of the hyphenated form in reliable botanical sources that are definitive for information such as descriptions, distributions, etc. (b) the intention that the constructed English name should indicate clearly that the genus and species are not firs. Peter coxhead (talk) 10:30, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

@Peter Well said, and thanks for the explanation. I just wish there'd been an English teacher present when part (b) was conceived. Eric ^talk 10:39, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

@Eric: um... It's interesting to look at two-part words used for the genus part of the English name at List of birds by common name for reasonably common birds and then try them with and without hyphens in Google ngrams; see e.g. sparrowhawk or hummingbird. My experience is that the hyphenated form is most common until the early 20th century. So, given that teachers lag in their adoption of changing language practices, I don't think you can be sure what your hypothetical teacher would have said then! Peter coxhead (talk) 11:23, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Pseudotsuga genus common names

The heading of this article includes three common names for the genus Pseodotsuga: Douglas fir, Douglas-fir, Douglas tree, Oregon pine. These same names are included in the article on Douglas fir species. Is this use of the same common names to designate a species and a genus based in some reliable source? --Auró (talk) 20:02, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

@Auró: well, I can source "Douglas Fir" for both the genus and P. menziesii to Stace, Clive A. (2019), New Flora of the British Isles (4th ed.), Middlewood Green, Suffolk: C & M Floristics, p. 51, ISBN 978-1-5272-2630-2; GRIN uses "Douglas-fir" here for the genus and here for the species. I don't know about the other two. Peter coxhead (talk) 14:15, 16 February 2020 (UTC)