Talk:Owodo/GA2

GA review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Nominator: Vanderwaalforces (talk · contribs) 12:38, 4 July 2025 (UTC)

Reviewer: Reverosie (talk · contribs) 17:28, 30 July 2025 (UTC)

Hello! As discussed on my talk page, I'll be taking this review. Expect me to properly begin tonight or tomorrow! 🌷Reverosie🌷^★talk★ 17:28, 30 July 2025 (UTC)

@Reverosie thank you for picking this one! Vanderwaalforces (talk) 18:12, 30 July 2025 (UTC)

Spot check

Update on the spot check: After viewing AirshipJungleman's extensive critiques, I need to verify that his concerns have been rectified before resuming with this review. Please allow me a moment to do so.

Update: Many changes have been rectified, however, not all. For one, the sentence about the curse remains unverified, and there is still much repetition (which I will point out.) I will be doing a more thorough spot check now. 🌷Reverosie🌷^★talk★ 14:55, 31 July 2025 (UTC)

@Reverosie I immediately went back to my source after you mentioned the curse being unverified; I could see it there clearly. Perhaps, I paste for you the sentence from the source that verifies it?

PS: Thanks for the review so far; I am currently working on your comments below. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 15:59, 31 July 2025 (UTC)

@Reverosie Omoregie 1997b, p 118. Accordingly Owodo was pronounced deposed and unfit to be a king. A curse, in which every member participated, was placed on any one who would react against it.

Meanwhile Owodo was alone in the palace. After he ordered his son to be killed in a forest, the oraclist who was consulted by Esagho and the chamberlains came to him to tell him the truth of the revelation...

This clearly verifies the curse; where could I have gotten/how could I have probably invented a curse that never happened? lol. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 20:38, 31 July 2025 (UTC)

If you want, I could privately send you a scanned copy of this particular source for the purpose of this review. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 20:39, 31 July 2025 (UTC)

Infobox

• It does not need to be specified that Owodo was the last Ogiso in his title section.
• Instead of the successor being vacant, it should directly be written that it was either “Deposed by the Oba monarchy” or that there was an intermission of some sort (I’ll leave it up to you, but I’d suggest the former)
  • According to history, the title "Ogiso" was vacant because the person m the people wanted to be Ogiso, Evian (because he was able to conquer the man-eating Osogan), refused to assume the title, and all those lasted until before the Oba monarchy was established. It currently says Vacant with an efn template saying Deposed; succeeded in power by an interim period leading to Evian's rule as administrator. Is this sufficient? --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 21:41, 31 July 2025 (UTC)
• You should add a spouse section to the template. I’m not sure why it isn’t there, but the source editor can be annoying at times.
• Why is Ometo in both the wife section and the mother section? I seriously doubt that Owodo married his own mother; there must be a mistake. Please fix the infobox to list Ometo as Owodo’s mother if this is the case!
  • This was a damn error which I have fixed by now. Ometo was Owodo's wife not mother.
• On top of this, the fact that Ometo was Owodo or Arigho’s wife before his coronation should be moved to the footnote as well.
• Instead of “total seven wives”, it should say “five others”, if anything at all.
• Occupation is not necessary here.

Lead

• Why did Owodo want to curb noble privileges? If it has nothing to do with the famine, it should probably be in a new sentence.
• It should be specified what an oracle verdict is for those who do not know/lack background on this subject
  • I did now.
• “His erratic governance and loss of noble support culminated in the assassination of Ogbeifun, a leading noble, and the killing of Ogbeifun's pregnant widow,” This should simply say “And the killing of his pregnant widow”.
• What does Kirikuvua mean? There is no translation here.
  • The act of killing a pregnant woman is called Kirikuvua. And I think the act was mentioned.--Vanderwaalforces (talk) 22:03, 31 July 2025 (UTC)

Early life and background

The in-flight WiFi cut out again before the thorough spot-check, so I decided to review the first section. I'm beginning to wonder if the guild of copy editors should run through this article before it is nominated for a third time, since a lot of work seems to be ahead and perhaps it is too much for a GA review to cover.. I’d like to discuss that with you before I continue this review. Keep in mind that I wrote much of this on my notes app since my in-flight WiFi completely cut out.

- The ordering of these paragraphs is very weird. I’d suggest re-ordering it like this (I can’t use my sandbox at the moment):

Owodo was born into the ruling lineage of the Ogiso monarchy in Igodomigodo (modern-day Benin Kingdom).[c] His father was Arigho, a noble documented as a beads merchant, while his mother, Ometo—also known as Arukho ('least-placed wife')—was the daughter of Idiado and the sister of Ogiso Ehenneden.[4]  Following the death of Ogiso Ehenneden c. 1110, the rulership structure in Igodomigodo changed. With Ehenneden leaving no heir, Ohuede succeeded him and established a separate succession line (the Ohuede dynasty) by distancing himself from the Odoligie line.[5] Ohuede's reign lasted two years (c. 1110 – c. 1112) before his son, Oduwa, ascended and ruled for seven years (c. 1112 – c. 1119).[5]

Initially, Owodo was not expected to inherit the throne because he had six elder brothers; however, the deaths of his brothers shifted succession expectations toward him.[5] By the time of Owodo's coronation (c. 1125), he had taken his first wife, Ometo (also known as Arukho), with whom he had a son named Ikaladerhan.[2] In establishing a traditional royal harem, Owodo expanded his household by marrying an additional six wives—primarily the widows of his deceased brothers—which brought eighteen stepchildren into the palace.[2] This decision is reported to have contributed to subsequent internal rivalries.[6] Among these new wives was Esagho, who later played a prominent role in palace affairs.[7]

Some sources describe Arigho as having implemented an anti-inflation treasury plan during the Great Famine (c. 1119 – c. 1125), a measure intended to stabilise the kingdom's economy by regulating payments and managing the circulation of wealth.[5] Under the guidance of their father, Owodo and his brothers learned the art of bead-making—a trade involving camwood beads, hard-nut beads, and cowrie beads that was considered lucrative at the time.[4] He actively participated in his family's bead-making enterprise.[5]

The rest of this review will follow the format of the rewrite

• P1S2: Arigho’s role as a beads merchant is completely irrelevant compared to the fact that he was the previous Ogiso, which should be mentioned instead of this (especially since the bead making is referenced later in this paragraph)
• P1S2: It does not need to be repeated that Ometo was known as Arukho since this was specified in the infobx.
• P1S2: Who is Idiado and why is he worth mentioning here? If I’m remembering correctly, he wasn’t in Arigho’s article (or any of the Ogisos whose articles I’ve reviewed)
• P1S3: Should say “around 1110” instead of using the circa template outside of the infobox
• P1S4: It should be specified why Ohuede got to succeed him/how he is related to Ehenneden (an abridged version, of course)
  • Because I entirely changed the first paragraph, these no longer apply.
• P2S1: Should be rewritten. Perhaps something like, “Owodo was not expected to inherit the throne as he had six elder brothers, however, their successive deaths moved him forward in line.”
• P2S2: Should be “his coronation in 1125”
• P2S2: It should be specified that Ometo is or is not Owodo’s mother! Saying “also known as Arukho” is repetitive regardless since you’ve said it before.
• P2S3: This sentence should be split. Perhaps. “…By marrying an additional six wives. As they were primarily the widows of his deceased brothers, eighteen stepchildren were brought into the palace, contributing to internal rivalries.”
• P2S4: How did Esagho play a role in these affairs? We should be told about this.
• P3S1 “Some sources.” Weasel words. Say it with conviction or don’t say it at all. In Arigho’s case, we can say with complete certainty that he implemented anti-inflation plans and was incredibly wealthy (his name quite literally means money eater). We don’t need to say that “some sources” described it this way when it was absolutely true (if you DO say “some sources”, in the future, you’ll need to specify exactly who said it).
• P3S2 + P3S3: These can be trimmed a bit and merged into one sentence
• Image: Perhaps an image of these beads could be added since this article has absolutely no images.
• P4: This entire paragraph reiterates what is said during the reign section and should either be merged with the rest of the article or entirely deleted.

Comment: @Reverosie: I reworked this particular section entirely. Please take a look. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 09:19, 1 August 2025 (UTC)

From a quick read, the reworked version of this section is significantly better. I'll write new comments applying to the rework ‍🌷Reverosie🌷^★talk★ 21:32, 3 August 2025 (UTC)

Hi Reverosie, was wondering if you had time to look at this? Vanderwaalforces (talk) 23:06, 11 August 2025 (UTC)

Hello! Yes, I'm so sorry it took so long! ‍🌷Reverosie🌷^★talk★ 23:06, 11 August 2025 (UTC)

Early life and background (reworked version)

• P1: Arigho's status as Ogiso is still not mentioned at all, which is very important for the reader to know.
• P1S3+S4: These two sentences could be merged into one sentence via a semicolon instead of split into two by a period
• P1: Arigho's kingship and death are not mentioned at all, and the article simply skips to Owodo's coronation in 1125. This needs to be fixed.

Other than this, the reworked section is very good. However, the reader will need far more context about Arigho. I'll move to the next section.

An apology

@Vanderwaalforces: I'm so sorry that this took me so long! I have absolutely no excuse, and it was extremely unfair of me to make you wait.

To make up for this, I promise to review your next two GA nominations with utmost speed and care; feel free to ping me when you nominate your next article, and I will review it with haste! ‍🌷Reverosie🌷^★talk★ 23:16, 11 August 2025 (UTC)

Oh my, that is cool of you; don't forget there's no deadline and we're all volunteers anyway. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 10:37, 12 August 2025 (UTC)

@Reverosie I have added Arigho's kingship and death briefly to the section. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 13:18, 12 August 2025 (UTC)

I've re-read the section with these changes, and it is significantly better. I'm a bit busy today, but I'll move to the rest of the article as soon as I can ‍🌷Reverosie🌷^★talk★ 15:29, 12 August 2025 (UTC)

GA review information

I'm making a slight change to the way I review GANs and wanted to let you know about it. I find it useless to point out small grammatical suggestions in these reviews that I could easily fix myself. My suggestions will relate to things that require your thought and attention, not small things that I can do myself without bothering you. So, if the review seems short and concise, it's because I'm fixing the very minor grammatical errors instead of pointing them out without doing anything. This will be effective immediately, and I'm sorry to change my strategy in the middle of the review, but it will be completed much faster now. ‍🌷Reverosie🌷^★talk★ 21:48, 13 August 2025 (UTC)

General

I've gone in and edited the article myself instead of pestering you about grammatical things (as I've already said), but there are a few things besides that:

• Arigho's reign should be detailed a bit. This will put the state of the kingdom when Owodo took power into context for the reader.

* I'd also suggest adding that the Osogan was reported since Arigho's reign and isn't a new thing

• More specific years and dates of events should be added when possible
• The article should feature at least one image.

I may add more to the general section later, but for now, this seems alright. ‍🌷Reverosie🌷^★talk★ 22:35, 13 August 2025 (UTC)

@Reverosie: I saw your edits, thank you for looking through. I have added to Arigho's reign for more context now. In this edit, I think the Osogan comment was addressed? please help confirm. I try to alway provide specific dates, and I could not find an image that would be relevant to add to Owodo. Can File:Ikhaladerhan.jpg be added towards the end ("Oral and cultural traditions" section) or the begining "Early life and background" section? --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 09:47, 14 August 2025 (UTC)

Unsupported claims from unreliable sources.

The claims of Kanem-bornu, songhai, nupe, and idah, avoiding the "ogiso market" due to fear are not supported by any historic evidence, aside from the fact that these are names for polities that existed at different times, what research has been done to suggest that trade directly existed between Igodomigodo and these polities to begin with?

We know for instance, that Ife had trade with far reaching polities such as Tié in Chad, Kissi in Burkina Faso, Diouboye in Senegal, Gao and Essouk in Mali, and Koumbi Saleh in Mauritania, and Kanem, due to the rigorous scientific analysis of ife's industrial glass production centres [][][] that revealed their unique composition of HLHA glass uncovered in those areas.

Yet no such discoveries have been made that can even tell us anything intelligible about the Igodomigodo polity, let alone trade with Kanem or the songhai as claimed.

The single WP:NOTRS source from Osayomwanbo Osemwegie Ero used to support these claims is a self published book that peddles unacademic dates 40bc - 1200ad for the existence of the Igodomigodo. That book as a whole doesn't meet wikipedia standards for reliable sources, it's full of unverifiable claims made with no scientific or historical evidence.

Lastly, the claim that Ikaladerhan being Oduduwa is a "widely accepted theory" is completely bogus, and justifying this with a single source that only presents it as an alternate theory, is very dubious, especially when there are hundreds of academic books on Oduduwa that don't even mention any Ikaladerhan figure. I believe it is against Wikipedia:UNDUE to even present it to wikipedia at all when the few reliable sources who even talk about any link between Oduduwa and Ikaladerhan promptly dismiss the theory as a modern hoax[]. Oduduwa is most widely recognised as a historical *Yoruba* King and deity figure, not as Ikaladerhan. Sohvyan (talk) 22:54, 13 August 2025 (UTC)

Thank you so much for commenting this. I'm going to look into this as soon as I can. ‍🌷Reverosie🌷^★talk★ 04:16, 14 August 2025 (UTC)

Let me first mention that myself and Sohvyan have had disagreements on other articles/venues before now; at Ehengbuda, etc. But it is now obvious that Sohvyan only have issues with articles about old Edo people I create that have direct relations with the Yoruba people; I have thousands of contributions, have written several GAs, but only the ones that have relations with Yoruba people are "unfounded", "unreliable", "dubious" to Sohvyan, that is my observation so far.

Hello Sohvyan. Ero 2003, p. 104 directly verifies that statement saying

p103 overflowing... Goods from trans-Sahara trade caravans and ‘other sister kingdoms like...

p104...Kanem Bornu Songhay, Nupe, Idoma, Ilorin, Ijebu (Uzebu), Lokoja, Old Ife (Uhe) Okene, Idah Ozigono Wadai, Kanuri, Zaria, Gombe, Kano, Gobir, Kebbi and Katsina found their way to Agbado market. Also materials from the South such places like Brass , Bonny Onitsha and Aboh , Wadah and Mahin were also brought there . So one can see that Agbado was a great commercial market that received goods from all over North and West Africa in early days . That it was disturbed by a man eating animal , was of great concern to the people who wanted this problem solved . But Ogiso Owodo had no answer to it . At night around Okedo , people were afraid to come out and many people stopped going to the market . For fear of being attacked by Osogan and this led to the expression in those days when greeting in the market .

My question for you is, is there a source that says "no, there was no such thing as Igodomigodo"? or for this sake of this article, "no, Igodomigodo had no trade contact with any of these kingdoms"?

You are selectively critiqing my work and contributions to reflect your own personal opinions and point of view, and this is begining to constitute WP:WIKIHOUNDING. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 09:22, 14 August 2025 (UTC)

Instead of making this a personal affair, try to address the issues raised. Trying to make this about me having a personal issue with you is odd when even your first GA reviewer on this topic @AirshipJungleman29 had problems with you.

You received several corrections for your attempts to use wikipedia to promote ahistorical tales from unreliable sources over well established academic consensus in yoruba-edo related articles, and that is documented in this ANI[]

Can you point me to where I ever said "no there was no such thing as Igodomigodo"? I simply said no discoveries have been made that can tell us anything intelligible about the Igodomigodo polity. That's the simple truth.

To address your reply, the bone of contention here is the fact that Ero himself is an unreliable source as someone who did not document how he came about his information. To academia, his work is as credible as any writer of fiction. I don't know why you are quoting him again as if it's something I missed in my initial post.

As correctly pointed out in this article on the Ogiso list at a certain point in the 20th century, very little was known by the oldest keepers of edo tradition about the "Ogiso", yet over time, newer authors have added tales and elaborate stories with no rhyme or reason to how those stories were obtained or any credible evidence to support their claims.

This is further coloured by the fact that neutral academics have expressly documented the fabrication of historical narratives by irredentists from within the edo sphere for political expediency in Nigeria. This isn't me making things up because of my own personal opinions, these are quotes from academic profressionals on the matter

Their authors are representatives of the nationalistically minded part of the Bini intelligentsia who are seeking to ground the idea of an exceptional antiquity for their people and claims for its exclusive part in the socio-political life of independent Nigeria.

Dmitri Bondarenko in Advent of the Second (Oba) Dynasty: Another Assessment of a Benin History Key Point

It is only prudent to be cautious about grand self glorifying tales that do not come with any kind of evidence, and expressly any who would try to use Wikipedia to push them.

The vast majority of these stories about Igodomigodo or the Ogiso are written in modern times, and they fail to meet academic standards. They aren't corroborated by anyone other than the authors themselves, and they expressly fly against actual academic research.

Your credibility on "articles about old Edo people" isn't determined by how many unrelated articles you write. You could write a million well loved articles, it wouldn't change that on the Ogiso articles you've written such as this, they have been sourced mainly from highly unreliable and unacademic sources such as Ero and his tales of a "40bc-1200ad" Igodomigodo. Sohvyan (talk) 11:23, 14 August 2025 (UTC)

The key point of this discussion seems to be whether Ero, Osayomwanbo Osemwegie (2003). The History of Benin: Ogiso Dynasties, 40 BC – 1200 AD. Nosa Computers. ISBN 978-978-31533-7-0. is a reliable source, something that I did not even check in my initial review because of the copyvio issues.

Online searches for the publisher reveal no result, which is never a good start. The author himself, judging by his body of work, seems to be an all-purpose writer, with publications on broadcast journalism, the grammar of the Edo language, and something on the philosophy of salutations, with an interest in history. I can find no indication that he is either qualified in history or attached to a historical institution. Thus, judging by the unfindable nature of the publisher, this appears to be an essentially self-published source not published by a subject-matter expert, and thus not reliable by Wikipedia's standards. Happy to be convinced otherwise, but for the moment I would have to advise against using this source in any articles. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:40, 14 August 2025 (UTC)

Agreed. Sohvyan (talk) 13:46, 14 August 2025 (UTC)

Thank you. Sohvyan (talk) 11:27, 14 August 2025 (UTC)

Reverosie, hi, I'd recommend skimming through these section: Edo–Yoruba connection. I don't know what to do here, a discussion at WP:RSN might be worthwhile. My initial thoughts are Ero 2003 isn't RS (we don't know if it's self-published, the publisher is just unknown), Omoregie is RS. But everyone here needs to WP:AVOIDYOU and stop personalising this. Sohvyan, you've returned from a 3 week break to dump on a GAN of someone you recently reported to ANI, it doesn't not look like wikihounding. Kowal2701 (talk) 12:04, 14 August 2025 (UTC)

I'd concur (while Omoregie's publishers are somewhat similar, his output makes it clear he's a specialist). WP:RSN is the next step (please ping me if it goes there) but for now I'd consider Ero 2003 not an RS. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:07, 14 August 2025 (UTC)

It’s a bit more complicated with Omoregie, the first source above says he had a bachelors in history, but did his MA and PhD in other areas, and worked as a history teacher and civil servant before becoming an amateur historian. Like Egharevba his work was self-published, but he engaged in debates with scholars and is relatively widely cited. The way I see it, either we write Edo history from a Yoruba POV (a non-starter imo) or we use him as RS Kowal2701 (talk) 12:50, 14 August 2025 (UTC)

Precisely. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 13:28, 14 August 2025 (UTC)

I don't think "Edo history from a Yoruba POV" is necessary, but it's clear that at a certain point in the 20th century, they followed the same narrative. Expecting that authors at least list their informants when documenting history before they can be seen as reliable shouldn't be a controversial position. The extraordinary claims in this article aren't inconsequential, to me simply they needed to be backed up by good evidence and they were not. Sohvyan (talk) 13:45, 14 August 2025 (UTC)

The ANI I raised showed clear issues with his behaviours. It showed that an article he'd written that had passed GA review was flawed, and that was acknowledged. There is a precedent there. That anyone's articles on these specific topics are persistently written with questionable sources is no fault of mine, nor do I fault the GA reviewers who missed them, these issues are that historied, and I just happened to have enough knowledge about these specific topics to spot the layered misinformation in them, in this case, alerting Reverosie of key details they may be unaware of. Note I did not introduce any personal issues into this GA. Sohvyan (talk) 13:41, 14 August 2025 (UTC)

@Sohvyan @AirshipJungleman29 @Kowal2701 Hello. I'm awake now, and I feel the need to comment on this.

When I was a new GA reviewer, I was the one who reviewed and passed a lot of these articles, and I feel as though I need to take accountability. Looking back on it, these sources do not seem to be reliable, and I deeply apologize for passing these articles despite that. I shouldn't have done so, and I should have been more cautious as a reviewer; I didn't give those early spot checks the care and attention that they needed, and I acknowledge the consequences of this.

From the very bottom of my heart, I'd like to thank the three of you for pointing these problems out to me. As much as I'm ashamed to admit it, I wouldn't have noticed if not for your intervention. In my opinion, the articles I passed relating to this subject should be reassessed accordingly, and I am more than willing to put in the work to fix the problems caused by my mistakes.

As I am still relatively new to Wikipedia, I'll leave it to you three what should be done, but I accept any consequences I may face for my own missteps, and I do not object to them.

Thank you again, and I'm deeply sorry, ‍🌷Reverosie🌷^★talk★ 17:41, 14 August 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Reverosie, you haven't done anything wrong, nor has VWF, there's just some improvements to make. I'm not familiar with our content assessment system (Airship will be) but AFAIK this sort of thing happens a lot. We should give VWF a chance to reply Kowal2701 (talk) 19:08, 14 August 2025 (UTC)

@Kowal2701: Thank you so much for being so kind. I don't blame myself now, nor do I blame VWF, whose contributions to Wikipedia have been rich and informative. I'm still quite new here, so I wasn't sure if I was in the clear. ‍🌷Reverosie🌷^★talk★ 19:14, 14 August 2025 (UTC)

As I mentioned earlier Reverosie, I don't blame any GA reviewer that may have missed key details here or there concerning articles like this, they take days of reading to fully grasp. You aren't the only one who has passed a VWF article, and I'm not the only one who has had issues with a VWF article, the best we can do is discuss the key issues that need to be addressed without taking things to a personal level. Thanks for your contribution. Sohvyan (talk) 20:03, 14 August 2025 (UTC)

@Kowal2701: Thank you! @Reverosie: You haven’t done anything wrong although I understand the feeling as I am feeling even worst for not taking into consideration what have been said here before using the source in the first place. There’s nothing much for to add btw, if the reliability of a source I used was questioned, and two other editors I trust think so, I’m left with trying to clean up my mess, lol; remove thay source from other articles I’ve used it on.

On another note, @AirshipJungleman29:, thank you for weighing in, although I saw above where you mentioned that you weren’t able to do a proper review because of “copyvio” issues, but I’m afraid you didn’t raise any such thing as copyvio issues on your review, let alone mention it. But at the end of the day, notes taken, improvements made. Thank you! Vanderwaalforces (talk) 20:56, 14 August 2025 (UTC)

Yes, you're right Vanderwaalforces, I mistyped copyvio when I meant source misrepresentation. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 21:49, 14 August 2025 (UTC)