Talk:Mwene Muji

Drafts

@Catjacket Hi, hope you're well, here's the Mwene Muji page, there's also Draft:Boma Kingdom Kowal2701 (talk) 21:03, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Crisco 1492 talk 17:43, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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• ... that Mwene Muji was a polity in the Congo Basin which declined in the late 19th century, and when the Belgians collected traditions in 1926, grand claims of its once imperial status were dismissed?
• ALT1 ... that Mwene Muji was a polity in the Congo Basin, and when the Belgians collected traditions in 1926, grand claims of its once imperial status were dismissed?
• ALT2 ... that the grand claims from the ruler of Mwene Muji of them once having imperial status were dismissed by Belgian colonial authorities?

• Source:

• • Reviewed:

Created by Kowal2701 (talk). Number of QPQs required: 0. Nominator has fewer than 5 past nominations.

Kowal2701 (talk) 19:48, 20 October 2024 (UTC).

• Hello and welcome to DYK. Right now the hook does not meet the guidelines for a DYK hook as it's too long (we have a limit of 200 characters for most hooks, and ideally it should be less). In addition, it needs to largely focus on a hooky fact, whereas the current hook is essentially summarizing the article. Please prose a new hook so that the nomination can continue. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:18, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

@Kowal2701: I've also checked the article and right now it's less than 1500 characters long. DYK requires a minimum of 1500 characters of prose to be accepted. If you can expand the article further so that it meets the guidelines then less us know, but if that is not feasible then unfortunately the nomination will have to be rejected. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:20, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

@User:Narutolovehinata5 the hook is 197 words long, and it gives context the fact which is that their grand claims were dismissed. I wouldn't say it summarises the article, just the last few sentences. I can expand it further, I think at the moment it's at 1200 words. Are you sure the hook isn't okay?

Yes, the hook is far too long for DYK, even if it is slightly under the character limit. Perhaps another editor like Launchballer can give some advice on what makes a good hook, especially one that isn't too long. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:50, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

@User:Narutolovehinata5 but surely if it's under the character limit then the length is okay?

I’ve added alts, I think I know what you were getting at, that the initial hook had too much information in it and wouldn’t entice the reader to click on the article. I think ALT2 is okay? Kowal2701 (talk) 13:18, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, ALT2 would work. Since the original issues about length and hooks are now addressed this is ready for a full review. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:42, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Article is new enough, long enough, is neutral and plagiarism free and a QPQ is not needed. Hook is cited and interesting. On sourcing, the article would benefit with a wider range of references, perhaps this, this or this will help? There's also a couple of points to address with clairication and 'by whom' tags inline. Also, how Mwene Muji is referred to changes between the second and third paragraphs - it moves to their - so the pronoun just needs to be standardised throughout. Also the lead should summarise the parapgraphs below, so do add detail from the lead below too. Great to see an article on the topic, and the map is great. Lajmmoore (talk) 16:09, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you so much for your time, that'll improve the article loads. I'll have a dig through Google Books but English sources are incredibly scarce. Those sources are good, thank you Kowal2701 (talk) 17:09, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

@User:Lajmmoore Is that good now? Kowal2701 (talk) 22:05, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Kowal2701 thanks for the work - looks good, but I've just spotted this sentence "It was of the Nunu people and the Ntote." and I can't work out what it means, or if it's in the right place, please could you clarify that? Then it will be good to go Lajmmoore (talk) 20:07, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Lajmmoore To be honest with you, I wasn’t entirely sure what the Ntote were so left it ambiguous, but after another read I’m confident they were just titles. Kowal2701 (talk) 22:05, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Lajmmoore (talk) 11:35, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Here is a late comment on this DYN: "Belgian colonial authorities" should have been linked to Belgian Congo and not to Congo Free State since the CFS was not a Belgian colony. Zoocat56 (talk) 23:37, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

Monoemugi vs Lunda

This article practically states that this kingdom “Mwene Muji” is the same as the Lunda Empire. The Jagas that invaded the Kongo are known to come from the Lunda Empire, and the Lunda Empire is positioned exactly in the same area as this Mwene Muji. I'm notchallenging that possibijity, but the article should be clear if that's either its statement or assumes there is a relationship between the two. On the other side, Nyamwezi's name coincides with “People of the moon”, & its geographical location is closer to today's central Tanzania, based on medieval European maps. 200.68.166.74 (talk) 18:10, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

They’re separate entities, in his History of West Central Africa, John Thornton writes about them as separate entities. They’re also far from in the same area, Mwene Muji was located around Lake Mai-Ndombe, Lunda in Katanga. There is little certainty around the origin of the Jaga, but them coming from Lunda is an old theory that’s been revised Kowal2701 (talk) 18:25, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

Nyamwezi is in Tanzania, and it has nothing to do with Mwene Muji other than Europeans thought everything in the interior was ruled by Mwene Muji Kowal2701 (talk) 18:27, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

Mwene Mutapa vs Mwene Muji

Mwene Mutapa's (Monomotapa / Zimbabwe) name has a Shona origin, & it seems the same happens with Mwene Muji. The Shonas are established in Zimbabwe & nearby regions, whereas the proposed claim in this article is that Monoemuji is located in the Congo River Basin near to the Atlantic Coast, around Lake Mai-Ndombe, relatively close to the Kongo Kingdom. Why would the Shonas name an empire so far away from their region of influence? There is also a lake much nearer to the Shona (Malawi) which is similar to the one shown in early European maps. ~2025-42721-05 (talk) 17:53, 24 December 2025 (UTC)

Filippo Pigafetta's account

In his texts, Pigafetta counters the statement that Monoemugi is located in the Kongo region.

Here the original text from Pigafetta: «In mari prætereas regione duorum prædictorum regnorum Mombazz & Melindæ, tres furgun infulæ quarum prima Monfia, fecunda Zanziber, tertia Pemba dicitur, à Ma humetanis quoque habitatæ & populatiflimæ, incolis albis, non armis fed agri culturæ deditis, & mercaturz: Zaccharum enim quod magna copia apud ipfo prouenit, cum aliis fructibus & leguminibus, paruis cymbis impofitum, conti nentis habitatoribus diuendunt. Præter prædicta hęc tria regna Chiloam nimi rum Melindam & Mombazam, littoralia, interius intra iplam continentem verfus Occidentem eft magnum illud, de quo aliquoties mentionem fecimus Monemugi imperium, quod verfus Aquilonem confinia Mozambiquani regn & Monomagi & Monomotapani contingens, verfus Occidentem inter duos Nili lacus: & verfus Septétrionem imperij Prette Gianni terminis clauditur. Et hic cum ma-ritimis regibus prædictis pacem colit.propter commercium cuius iple quoque vtilitatem percipit, allatis hinc omnis generis rebus in fuo regno, tam ad vefti-tum quă ad ornatum neceffariis, vt funt omnis generis panni preciofi ex gofli-pio aut ferico confecti, aliæque merces preciofiores. Et præcipuè delectantur incolæ globulis quibufdam ex Cambaia allatis, quibus ex bitumine quodam vi-trum claritate referente, rubro aut puniceo colore tinctis, & filis corallorum more appenfis, vtuntur pro infigniori ornatus etiam nihili facientes aurum,pe-cuniæ cos habent loco, pro quibus, vt & pro aliis mercibus dant ipfi aurum, ar-gentum,æs, &ebur.

Verfus Septentrionem inter Monemugi regem & Prettegianni, ali-quot funt reguli qui paruo negotio deuicti.nunc hunc,nunc illum pro domino agnofcút, colore cæterum albo, & ftatura reliquis huius plagæ incolis maiores.»

Google Translation: «In the sea, beyond the region of the two aforementioned kingdoms of Mombazz and Melinda, there are three small islands, the first of which is called Monfia, fertile Zanzibar, the third Pemba, also inhabited and populated by white inhabitants, not given to arms but to agriculture and trade.

For the sugar which comes in great abundance from him, together with other fruits and vegetables, is distributed in small quantities to the inhabitants of the continent.

Besides these three aforementioned kingdoms, namely Chiloe, Melinda and Mombasa, on the coast, within the continent towards the West is that great empire of Monemuga, of which we have made several mention, which towards the North borders the kingdom of Mozambique and Monomotapani, and towards the West between the two Nile lakes: and towards the North it is closed by the borders of the empire of Prette Gianni.

And here he maintains peace with the aforementioned maritime kings, because of the trade from which he also derives its usefulness, bringing from there all kinds of things into his kingdom, both for clothing and for adornment, such as all kinds of precious cloth made of gomphite or ferric, and other precious goods.

And the inhabitants are particularly delighted with the beads brought from Cambay, which are made of a kind of bitumen that gives the clarity of glass, dyed red or purple, and attached with threads like coral. They use them for the most infamous ornaments, even making gold worthless, having them as money, for which, as for other goods, they give gold, silver, copper, and ivory.

In the North, between the king of Monemog and the king of Prettegianni, there are several rulers who, having been defeated by a small battle, now acknowledge one, now that one as lord, the rest are white in colour, and are of greater stature than the rest of the inhabitants of this region».

Pigafetta places this kingdom in the Eastern Coast of Africa, associating it to Monomotapa, Mozambique & the Swahili City States. He even mentions the “Kingdom of Priest John” (Ethiopia).

According to his account, Monoemugi is located between the Coast, the Nile River, Ethiopia & Monomotapa, just as its shown in early European Maps. In 1504 Portugal had already reached Zanzibar, & Pigafetta wrote his book “Vera Descriptio Regni Africani” in 1598 (almost a century of exploration later), which challenges the statement that Europeans might have believed Monoemugi was “way in the interior” from the Kongo Coast. ~2025-42721-05 (talk) 18:29, 24 December 2025 (UTC)