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Aengus66(talk·contribs) / Gafni, Mordechai This user has contributed to the article.
Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Controversy sections are discouraged. I suggest that the biography be chronological, which it currently is not. In the religious career section, his ordination in 2008 is put ahead of the retraction of another ordination in 2006. So when was he first ordained? Since the allegations are discussed as the reason for giving back or having ordinations retracted, the allegations should be integrated into the time line.
Ordination 1, presumably before 2004
2004 allegations
Withdrawal of 1st ordination in 2006
Ordination 2, in 2008
giving back the ordination because of (more? or the same?) allegations
Putting all the negative material at the end of the article is problematic, since it leaves his ordaining and deordaining, his establishment of centers or organizations and their disestablishment, completely out of context referencing material that has not been presented to the reader yet. Therefore it should all simply be presented in chronological order. Also, calling it out under a heading listed in the tables of contents could be considered a biased form of presentation. If the material is presented chronologically, and if the lead fully summarizes the article, there should be no need for controversial section headings. Skyerise (talk) 20:44, 14 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
I've removed the information about Gafni's claimed current ordination, which was sourced only to Gafni, after searching for and not finding any third-party verification. This cannot be sourced to Gafni's self-published website, because it makes a claim about another living person, the Rabbi he claims ordained him, which isn't permitted under WP:ABOUTSELF. Skyerise (talk) 11:17, 15 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
I think I would do more like this. Note that I do not know who the article subject is, just a new editor here. I just dont like all the weight given to allegations in the lead, it tends to run afoul of BLP rules. Does the subject have any actual conviction, or are we just talking about allegations? Jtbobwaysf (talk) 02:06, 16 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
I suggest you read the whole article. Subject would most likely not be notable if it were not for the allegations. Centers were closed, ordinations retracted. WP:LEAD says that the weight in the lead should reflect the weight in the article. Minimizing it in the lead would be whitewashing, especially considering there was coverage in The New York Times! Skyerise (talk) 02:09, 16 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
I think we could summarize it as you have done here just now. The lead currently doesnt really touch on the points you raise, that the subject is primarily notable due to the allegations and rather just names the allegations in excessive detail in the lead. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 03:33, 16 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
That's just how the paragraph is structured. It notes the allegations, then the specific effects the allegations have had on the subject's career. That's precisely what it touches on, the retractions of ordinations, the closing of the center, and that there was additional subsequent fall out. The subject was a rabbi: the lead needs to make clear that exactly why he is now a former rabbi. That's unusual. His alleged offenses were at or involved students or members of organizations he worked for or founded. His actions led to criticism from those very organizations as well. It's all complexly interwoven with his career and career problems, and shouldn't be glossed over in the lead. Skyerise (talk) 10:14, 16 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
Also, the allegations are not unconfirmed. Gafni has confessed to several of them, acknowledging that the State of New York would consider his sexual activities with teenagers in his 20s as "misdemeanors" - see the several Dr. Phil episodes now linked from the external links section. He also admits to practicing a "polyamory" - while he was married - in which he kept his sexual partners (who were members of his congregation) and his wife in the dark about his other partners (which is technically not polyamory). Skyerise (talk) 11:05, 16 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
