Talk:Determinism/Archive 4

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Slight alteration

The sentence "The argument called indeterminism (otherwise "nondeterminism") negates causality as a factor and contradicts deterministic argument" was changed to "The argument called indeterminism (otherwise "nondeterminism") negates causality as a factor and opposes the deterministic argument" in that "contradicts" appeared a weasel word suggesting that indeterminism shows a flaw in determinism, yet does not keep this balanced in that determinism can show a flaw in indeterminism also. The way the sentence appeared, just seemed slightly inappropriate for a balanced approach. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.188.175.199 (talk) 00:10, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

A mind experiment

Here's a mind experiment that i came up with, which i believe is better suited to proving Determinism than Laplace's demon: We make two exact clones of a person- let it be "A" and "B". We send the exact signals through their 5 senses for a long period of time- a few years, maybe. We subject them to exact physical conditions such as temperature humidity, etc all this while. Now, when this is being done...or to make it an easier thing to imagine: if we send some signals through their senses that provoke a reaction- the reaction from both the samples will be the same. The basic message i tend to convey is this- there is absolutely nothing magical that happens in this world. It is only rational that every event is the only possible scientifically compatible consequence of previous events. It is perfectly rational.Mehfoos (talk) 19:19, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Your conclusion has absolutely no consistency to the theory you proposed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.167.248.95 (talk) 14:22, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

First Paragraph.

The current 1st para is flawed in two ways;

Determinism is the philosophical proposition that every event, including human cognition, decision and action, is causally determined by an unbroken chain of prior occurrences. No wholly random, spontaneous, mysterious, or miraculous events occur. The principal consequence of deterministic philosophy is that free will (except as defined in strict compatibilism) becomes an illusion; this philosophical belief is known as hard determinism. In contrast to determinism is libertarianism, which is the doctrine that voluntary actions are caused by a self free from prior causation; and indeterminism which is the theory that some or all events are not completely determined.

The passage in bold is somewhat WK:POV and also dealt with much better under the "nature of determinism" section.

It also fails to clarify the difference between determinism and fatalism. The question of the relationship between determinism and predictability should also be dealt with.1Z 17:43, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I have shortened the first paragraph. It is not possible or desirable to explain all the complexities of determinism-libertarianism-compatibilism in the introduction. 1Z 21:51, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

There is no difference between determinism and fatalism. The page is flawed.24.4.56.66 (talk) 08:16, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree to that- technically there is no difference between determinism and fatalism. Mehfoos (talk) 18:10, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Agreed... I've added the following bit (in bold) to the final sentence of the first section: "Determinism should not be confused with self-determination of human actions by reasons, motives, and desires, nor with predestination, which specifically factors the possible existence of God into its tenets; moreover, determinism explicitly does not suggest that prediction is possible, whatever the means- this is a separate, epistemological, question."; also, I've deleted the box with picture of gears, as the gear metaphor and accompanying text are totally misleading- determinism does not, in fact, make any assertions as to the possibility of predicting anything... that is a separate view entirely and this kind of comment should only be included when discussing Laplace's demon or in the "Quantum mechanics and classical physics" section of the article, etc. Buckwheatandgrits (talk) 19:50, 3 April 2011 (UTC) (this is showing up as a minor edit in my watchlist- I must have done something wrong; here's another changelog entry) Buckwheatandgrits (talk) 15:32, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

First Cause

The article says:

"(2) There is no event A0 prior to which there was no other event, which means that we are presented with an infinite series of causally related events, which is itself an event, and yet there is no cause for this infinite series of events."

This is seriously misleading. An "infinite series of causally related events" is not "itself an event". This is senseless because in reality an infinite group of events would have no limits (no start, no end). One can always "add" one more event into the series. [EPLeite 01:26, 23 August 2008 (UTC)]

The statement fails to take into account the nature of an infinite series as truly infinite, instead treating it as a real number. RealityRipple (talk) 12:39, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Am I the only one who doesn't see the logic behind "A further problem is that an infinite series of events before any particular event would make it impossible for the event to occur. If there are an infinite number of yesterdays, how do you get to today?" Perhaps this should be replaced with a general question about the nature of flowing time? Tesseract2 (talk) 02:16, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

I think this whole section verges on the OR and should probably be removed. NBeale (talk) 10:40, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree. The phrasing fails to take into account the true nature of infinity and instead treats it as a "number" which has to have cause or begginning, when that has no reason to be the case. The "infinite number of yesterdays" don't outlaw the possibility of a today. It is a form of the problem of the halfs (when an arrow to reach to it's destination must first travel half of it's path, and then -or before- half of that half, etc.) but phrased into the form of a logical fallacy (because the arrow does reach it's destination). Therefore in my opinion it should be contested with a response as those said in here or removed altogether. Nobody is contesting it, and the statement plus the whole "first cause" section is completely uncited (besides the quantum part, but at least that one is mostly scientific unlike the other one that is theological). --190.174.64.243 (talk) 14:59, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

A version of this paaradox was presented by Kant, so it has some provenance. But I don't find it very convincing: it seems to disappear if you label "now" as 0, 1 second ago as -1 and so on. 1Z (talk) 18:35, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

It's ORish and dubious logic, I think it should go. 1Z (talk) 19:01, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Because of consensus and lack of opposition, I have removed the most OR statement and added citemarks to the section. --190.174.112.212 (talk) 17:22, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

One further idea to take into account with the concept of a First Cause, which is that most theories state that space and time are, if not inseparable, at least quite tied together, so linear cause-and-effect as we are used to observing can easily be said to not have existed prior to the Big Bang, and any conjecture on the nature of anything at that "time" is only capable of being conjecture. RealityRipple (talk) 05:32, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

About the introduction

Hi! This is about the introduction. We cant talk about "the beginning of the universe" anymore. Don't know what else could be said.-User talk:Twofeetofclay 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Cosmogony?? -Tesseract²(talk) 16:14, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

This article is complete nonsense and doesn't explain determinism

I had never heard of a "determinist" ideology until reading this article. And if there really is some strange religion using the term, why does deterministic also redirect here?

I have always understood deterministic to mean that a closed system's entire state is predictable. Meaning that we understand the relation between information considered part of the system.

The article kind of touches on that but then starts talking about some strange ideology. Also: It continuously refers to time as though all state was relative to time. Which is an oversimplification and just commonly observed in day-to-day life. A system could be deterministic and have no time. In electronic circuits time is often not considered a part of the paradigm because electrons move fast enough that we don't usually notice the delay between state changes. In fact, we typically dub something "realtime" as an exception to that. 173.228.31.160 (talk) 15:30, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

EDIT: It seems that what I was expecting is in other articles: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deterministic_system_(philosophy) and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deterministic_system

So, I update my critique: Are these categorized correctly? Actually.... what is this article even about? It appears to just take a basic principle of information which has real meaning in thermodynamics and engineering, then claim it as an area of philosophy. So what's going on? Are people labeling thermodynamics as a belief system and calling themselves "determinists"? If that's the case, can we just have an article "Determinism (religion)" or something and not making it so confusing and redundant? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.228.31.160 (talk) 18:04, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't know where you're getting off with "ideology" and "religion", but determinism as a concept long predates modern science and as such has a large history outside of its use in contemporary physics. This article is about determinism in its broadest philosophical sense (or rather, in its many senses, both historical and contemporary), and so it the proper primary topic for the name "Determinism" simpliciter. As you've found, there are other articles about more specific senses of determinism, and they are (or should be if they're not) linked from this article's subsections. --Pfhorrest (talk) 03:34, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Clockwork universe theory

In the article Clockwork universe theory there is text which in my opinion properly belongs to this article, since it has to do with present-day determinism rather than with centuries-old mechanical world view. Please mind that there is a discussion about it going on at Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard#Clockwork universe theory. The gist of the discussion is on whether science (especially quantum mechanics) has refuted determinism. Tgeorgescu (talk) 19:37, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Highly misleading mistake

Libertarianism does not say that pshysical deteminism is false nor that "free will" in the sense meant here is possible.
Libertarisniam means that free will in sense of free of coercion can and should exist. That's all!
Please correct that picture and correct the article. 79.112.21.245 (talk) 23:49, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Section on cause and effect

This section males no connection with the subject of determinism, and further, has nothing to do with its header, Cause and effect. It should be rewritten to make it pertinent, or removed. Brews ohare (talk) 17:42, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

There being no movement or comment on this observation, I have deleted this section. Brews ohare (talk) 16:09, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Agree with that and a good deletion, but be careful "Physics broadly construed" is how your topic ban is phrased. ----Snowded ^TALK 16:32, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Quantum Mechanics

This section is almost completely unrefed and reads like OR. I have put in some fact tags, straightened out some dubious wording and removed the assertion that "That is, the quantum mechanical problem can always be solved to a given accuracy with a large enough computer of predetermined precision, while the classical problem may require arbitrarily high precision, depending on the details of the motion." which may or may not be true in a very restricted sense with the 3 body problem, but is certainly not true in general and would need some v good refs. But the whole section needs lots of work. NBeale (talk) 07:04, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

"This does not mean determinists are against punishment of people who commit crimes because the cause of a person's morality (depending on the branch of determinism) is not necessarily themselves."

Anyone else think this doesn't make sense? Surely if the cause of a person's morality is not necessarily themselves, then the determinist, if anything, would be against punishment? The sentence is completely contradictory.--86.176.192.145 (talk) 19:33, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Regardless of whether or not free will exists, training is demonstrated to work. For examples of this, we can look at the domestication of animals. It then becomes clear that the notion of punishment does not hinge on free will, merely on memory and whatever process makes memory into future action.

I really came to say that the section on Quantum Mechanics is a bit questionable. I could not continue reading it after "Consequently, even a very small error in knowledge of initial conditions can result in arbitrarily large deviations from predicted behavior. Chaos theory thus explains why it may be practically impossible to predict real life, whether determinism is true or false. On the other hand, the issue may not be so much about human abilities to predict or attain certainty as much as it is the nature of reality itself.", which is true as far as it goes but has absolutely no bearing on the predictability of a system. It is an argument meant to attract the reader into believing it because it sounds complicated, even though the conclusion has nothing to do with the preceding text. Maybe it is a good idea to remove this or reword it so that it actually supports it's own claim? Alternatively I could be missing a crucial logical step that makes it seem like nonsense in which case it might be a good idea to rewrite it so it includes that step. 77.166.198.73 (talk) 23:28, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Future Predictions,maybe not.

If we could predict what is going to happen in the future right now, then, isn't just another molecular or energy change that affects the future just like neurochemicals in our brain? But in fact, nothing has changed due to energy keeps moving forward and time keeps moving forward. Unless you paused time got out of the system like god and then meddled with a few things and came back and unpaused time.

If it is inside the framework of the Determinism theory, nothing can be changed. It's just an illusion of free will. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.218.15.159 (talk) 11:53, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

What is your point? 77.166.198.73 (talk) 23:29, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Determinism and Deism

Is there any reason for me to believe that hidden variables and determinism in QM are anything more than a way for an omniscient deity to stay "king of the hill"? If so, please point that out in a way that those of us who are not omniscient can readily understand. The current arguments are notable for dying off mid-thought, like a poisoned cat.

"On the macro scale it can matter very much whether a bullet arrives at a specific point at a specific time; there are analogous quantum events that have macro- as well as quantum-level consequences. It is easy to contrive situations in which the arrival of an electron at a screen at a certain point and time would trigger one event and its arrival at another point would trigger an entirely different event. (See Schrödinger's cat.)" So what? An S. box is assembled by persons, and has whatever consequences it has by human design. The word "contrive" here is just a little too accurate. For natural occurrences in which the outcomes have not been contrived by human efforts, connecting probabilistic causes to subsequent effects, and then speculating on counter-factual "couldabins" is just a good way to waste time when bored. (Oops! Sorry if that was too much truth there!) -- TheLastWordSword (talk) 23:00, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

If any current unknown seems like an argument for a god to you, it would be no use to discuss it. The argument is circular: God exists, therefore there are unknown things. There are unknown things, so god exists. A lack of understanding is not an argument inherently in favour of or against god, making your starting question moot. 77.166.198.73 (talk) 23:36, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Morality

Should be section discussing moral impications — Preceding unsigned comment added by Crystalfile (talk • contribs) 15:35, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

The general discussion is whether or not it voids morals at all. It can be summarised in one sentence and it is implicitly in the text - what exactly needs discussing? 77.166.198.73 (talk) 23:39, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Tolerant environments free will.

Most psychologists appear to believe that free will is an illusion and after-justification, but metastudies by Kurt Fischer, Christina Hinton and others at "Mind, Brain and Education" have linked the prevalence of extreme recoveries after brain damage (that are unexplainable by established neurological and psychological theories) to unusually tolerant social environments. This can be explained by the model that social pressure to justify one's actions leads to justifications that paralyze an underlying ability of practically unlimited self-correction. This is explained in greater detail on the pages "Moderating the free will debate" and "Brain" on Pure science Wiki, a wiki devoted to the scientific method unaffected by academic prestige. 95.209.8.118 (talk) 13:21, 8 January 2013 (UTC)Martin J Sallberg

Aside from the flimsy conclusion ('this can be' <- weasel words), this experiment doesn't say anything about free will. 77.166.198.73 (talk) 23:41, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Classical Physics (Newtonian) is not a deterministic theory

Newtonian physics is not a deterministic theory; it has been proved false for more than 2 decades. One simple example is the "dome". There are other examples, such as "space invaders". I am far from qualified to edit the page, however, I urge someone more qualified to correct it: even though many people believed (and still believe) that Classical Physics is deterministic, such proposition is false, and western philosophers and scientists who based their belief of determinism on classical physics were wrong (of course that is a matter of adjusting the theory).80.22.192.23 (talk) 00:16, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

---

I can't conclude whether or not you actually know what you're talking about from what you wrote. It might be a good idea to provide a brief outline of your supporting facts before posting an argument.77.166.198.73 (talk) 23:44, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Scientific issues and article quality

I am really trying hard not to edit this article, so please help me avoid it! But the top level lede elements only refer to philosophical issues, and a search for the words science and physics reveals them to be way down in a section. The term Statistical mechanics does not appear in the article! Hello? And the only reference for support of determinism is the Einstein Bohr letter? And the term Butterfly effect is not even mentioned. Hello? Hello? And Heisenberg is mentioned in passing just once? Overall, I am very unhappy with the scientific aspects of this article, but do not want to edit it - it will take serious work to fix it. But let the reader be warned, and hopefully those who edit here will begin to fix it in time. At the very least the lede should mention science/physics, etc. History2007 (talk) 20:42, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree. So far as I'm concerned, the Bell test experiments have proved that Classical Determinism has been scientifically falsified. Period! And "chaos" will always exist because of the fundamental impossibility of making measurements past the level of Quantum Uncertainty. While Probabilities can be very accurate, they will never equate with the Certainty associated with Classical Determinism. Also, it is known that some biological structures are fine enough to be directly affected by Quantum Uncertainty --Evolution can find an advantage in such things, if a critter being chased by a predator can tap into the foundational randomness of the Universe to jump in unpredictable-even-in-theory ways. And, once such a mechanism for survival begins to exist, Evolution can play with it until Free Will begins to exist. It is both ironic and funny that various people have opposed the idea of Quantum Uncertainty, while simultaneously supporting the idea of Free Will. But since it is the former that allows the latter to exist, I have no sympathy for them! V (talk) 15:49, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

So your conception of free will is such that the source of it could be random?50.147.26.108 (talk) 23:02, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

I (some random person) did my best! If you guys/girls know more about quantum mechanics than my idle interest, let me know. I especially need input in the places where I left "clarification needed"-Tesseract²(talk) 04:15, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

I would suggest reading Loopholes in Bell test experiments. Tgeorgescu (talk) 19:51, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

You have confused a lack of understanding ('"chaos" will always exist because of the fundamental impossibility of making measurements past the level of Quantum Uncertainty', etc) with law - the theory speculates that this isn't possible, but that doesn't mean it's fundamentally impossible. Furthermore, Evolution will always only find solutions that are 'good enough'. That is the kind of search algorithm it essentially is. Nothing says that the "randomness" we're seeing isn't pseudorandom, seeded by a variable we haven't seen yet. Assuming chaos exists because we currently lack understanding (or assuming that it doesn't exist because the opposite is equally true) is not solid logical footing. 77.166.198.73 (talk) 03:29, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

The problem with Quantum theory

The key problem with Quantum Theory's questioning of determinism is the simple fact that where QT looks at an event and sees happenings that appear to have no cause, it assumes that they are causeless - positing a quasi-supernatural "god of the gaps" which it calls "randomness" when a more honest response would simply be "we don't know what happens there". 188.31.3.152 (talk) 13:45, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

First, WP:NOTAFORUM. Second, QM says nothing like that, see e.g. Interpretations of quantum mechanics#Comparison of interpretations. Tgeorgescu (talk) 20:11, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Reference to general relativity

The section "Modern scientific perspective" should consist a reference to general relativity and a view suggested by it, that past, present and future are equally real, the issues of which for example an Eternalism article talks about. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.69.99.111 (talk) 09:50, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Confusing content re quantum physics

The second paragraph in the section “Quantum realm” is way below the standards of an encyclopedia. Much sounds like beating around the bush and some is misleading. For example: All science arises from measurement, so there is nothing significant about quantum mechanics also arising from measurement. The fact that quantum mechanics “determines probabilities” does not make quantum mechanics in any way deterministic; after all probability theory determines probabilities, but from this it does not follow that probability theory is about deterministic systems. The fact that some quantum phenomena are deterministic (“ the probability of finding the particles in that path is one”) is irrelevant too; if there are non-deterministic events in a system then this system is non-deterministic - not if there are deterministic events in a system then this system is deterministic. That quantum physics has found many applications such as in building computers is also misleading. In fact computer designers have to work hard in order to avoid quantum effects causing computers to malfunction by rendering their functioning non-deterministic. Dianelos (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 11:02, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Sjö remove Charles Goodman

Sjö why you removed my editing about Goodman?

2de0 (talk) 21:55, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

"Other matters of quantum determinism" should be cited or removed

The content of this section appears to be original research, and the style of writing is highly opinionated.

Phrases like "absurdities," and "To forget this is a colossal error." need to be reworded or removed.

Most egregious is: "These theories suggest that a deeper understanding of the theory underlying quantum mechanics shows the universe is indeed non-deterministic at a fundamental level."

Determinism is a heavily debated topic and this section of the article reads like an argument (or, more accurately, an assertion) in favor of one side. It has been contested since November 2017 and August 2018. I suggest it be removed entirely, as it doesn't contribute significantly to the article's content. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.16.201.131 (talk) 08:33, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

Superdeterminism should be referenced and given a short introduction in this article

I would do it myself, but I do not feel qualified, since I have no expertise in philosophy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.234.244.234 (talk) 12:03, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Natural Determinism

1. distinction: Evolutionary Natural Determinism, which deals with issues such as natural disasters, epidemics, tectonic plate - or climate changes, and their impact on the deterministic determination of plant and animal species. Instinctive Natural Determinism, in which genes and behavior determine the deterministic course of events.

2. counterparts: With Evolutionary Natural Determinism we can state that for many things man has overcome determinism, so far. Think of: industrialized agriculture, medicines, energy supply, building dams, ... With Instinctive Natural Determinism it depends on the capacity of the being to be able to understand his genes and behavior in order to be able to overcome the deterministic course of his life with a Free Will. Think of: Critical Thinking versus Emotional Thinking. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:1812:C04:7900:59B3:B7BD:1EE1:3404 (talk) 09:05, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

Quick update

Provide more information about Determinism and hope people get the right conceptual about Determinism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CaptainJoseph (talk • contribs) 04:12, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Significance of smell research

That some animals, perhaps including human beings, are capable of smelling the difference between deuterated and undeuterated versions of the same molecule at equivalent partial pressures seems to have implications for the role of quantum processes in nervous systems, and hence, if one subscribes to a truly nondeterministic quantum mechanics, for the role of nondeterministic processes in the biological systems that govern behavior. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Seanmichaelragan (talk • contribs) 19:51, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

No it doesn't. It means that their chemical reactivity is different, and that's all. To suppose that there is some function behind our ability to smell a particular molecule is absurd. We can smell many molecules that never existed during human evolution.134.131.33.4 (talk) 19:05, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 6 September 2020 and 6 December 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): CaptainJoseph.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 19:23, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Article issues and classification

Where to begin? The article is:

• 1)- marked as possibly containing WP:original research (2010),
• 2)- unsourced statements (2014 & 2022),
• 3)- "minor POV problems" (Dec 2022),
• 4)- style issues (April 2022) and,
• 5)- possibly contains weasel-worded phrases (Dec 2022)

Fails multiple areas of the B-class criteria. Much more and it will be a net negative. -- Otr500 (talk) 22:44, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

External links

There are seven entries in the "External links". Three seems to be an acceptable number and of course, everyone has their favorite to add for four. The problem is that none is needed for article promotion.

• ELpoints #3) states: Links in the "External links" section should be kept to a minimum. A lack of external links or a small number of external links is not a reason to add external links.
• LINKFARM states: There is nothing wrong with adding one or more useful content-relevant links to the external links section of an article; however, excessive lists can dwarf articles and detract from the purpose of Wikipedia. On articles about topics with many fansites, for example, including a link to one major fansite may be appropriate.
• WP:ELMIN: Minimize the number of links. -- Otr500 (talk) 22:49, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

References #27 & #75

They are the same. I don't know how to fix such things 2604:2D80:DE09:D400:BCAF:5E86:D00F:D0AE (talk) 16:43, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Reference #29

Links to Wikipedia article, not the relevant paper. That article has a similar reference by Vaidman, but for 2018 not 2002. I'm not sure to which paper #29 is referring. 2604:2D80:DE09:D400:BCAF:5E86:D00F:D0AE (talk) 16:48, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Uranium-238

Under the "Quantum mechanics and classical physics" section, the article states:

"...For determinism to hold, every uranium atom must contain some internal "clock" that specifies the exact time it will decay. And somehow the laws of physics must specify exactly how those clocks were set as each uranium atom was formed during the supernova collapse."

This "argument" is ridiculous. Each atom having an "internal clock" is one of an infinite amount of solutions to this problem, so claiming that "for determinism to be true, this MUST happen EXACTLY in this way" is absurd (and also non-NPOV). This "argument" is claiming knowledge that cannot (yet) be known.

I would fix it now, but I'm not quite sure what to do with the rest of that paragraph. Thoughts? Jamesa7171 (talk) 07:21, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Agreed and did some rewriting. Check it out - I even added a picture. Actually, this whole article could use some pictures...will add more...-Tesseract2 (talk) 16:50, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Maybe some clarification:

“The challenge for determinism is to explain why and when decay occurs, since it does not seem to depend on external stimulus.”

The above written text may do some good with some clarification on the part of the editor/ readers, in the light of the following links, which maybe be summarized as- determinism doesn’t entail predictability.

As such radioactivity could be a completely deterministic process, yet unpredictable in practice. Also given measurement problem in quantum mechanics is yet to reach a consensus, one may mention that the reason for unpredictability is not yet well understood.

The links:

1> http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/determinism-causal/#QuaMec

2> https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/63811/is-the-universe-fundamentally-deterministic

3> https://books.google.com/books?id=P-iMBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA82&lpg=PA82&dq=determinism+predictability+and+radioactivity&source=bl&ots=6IUSwbD5D8&sig=uHmVxz9B0dPMlz8N2fp7jEnt_Ac&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=determinism%20predictability%20and%20radioactivity&f=false 43.251.172.231 (talk) 14:22, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Nice edits, but I don't see the relevance of the original concept.

The Strong Interaction has a spatial range limit and, due to the Uncertainty Principle, a temporal range limit. That is, there is a limit to the time pions (which mediate the Strong Interaction between baryons) can exist as well as a limit to the range in which they can act.

The specific timing of the decay could be calculated, but only if we had access to the details of the relevant particles. Measurement isn't possible at such a scale, so we cannot have access to those details.

The point being, rather than respond to a dubious claim, why include it at all? 2604:2D80:DE09:D400:BCAF:5E86:D00F:D0AE (talk) 17:30, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

"recursive causal splitting"

This comment is with regard to the following line as well as its reference—which seems to be this paper (see above section, 'Reference #29' on this Talk page). "This theory is sometimes described with the example of agent based choices but more involved models argue that recursive causal splitting occurs with all particle wave functions at play." Firstly, "is sometimes" is more weasel-wordy than saying by whom specifically. But, more importantly, I couldn't find any terms related to recursion in the paper. So, even as a well educated reader, I have no idea what is meant by this phrase. How then is this supposed to help teach anyone? Please elucidate, rewrite, or remove. 2604:2D80:DE09:D400:1C0:793:75E5:9481 (talk) 18:15, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Preamble for the Metaphysical Libertarians

Metaphysical libertarians believe in free will and that individuals should be able to make their own choices without external constraints. As a result, they often view freedom and liberty as central values in their philosophy.

However, different people may have different understandings of what these terms mean. For metaphysical libertarians, freedom and liberty may be tightly linked to their belief in free will and individual autonomy. They may view any external constraints on an individual's actions or choices as an infringement on their freedom and liberty.

Therefore, to ensure that these concepts align with their philosophical beliefs, metaphysical libertarians may seek to control the meaning of the words "freedom" and "liberty." They may argue that the common usage of these terms does not accurately capture their specific philosophical views and may therefore insist on defining these terms in a way that aligns with their beliefs.

Overall, the desire to control the meaning of these words is likely rooted in the deep-seated belief that freedom and liberty are fundamental to their worldview and that any deviations from their understanding of these concepts would be a threat to their philosophical beliefs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Edunoramus (talk • contribs) 16:27, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Pay attention to the difference between the ontological and epistemological levels.

I have corrected some inaccuracies. Quantum physics challenges determinism primarily on an ontological level, but with significant epistemological implications. The standard interpretation of quantum mechanics, known as the Copenhagen interpretation, suggests that reality at the microscopic level is not deterministic. Heisenberg's uncertainty principle and the probabilistic nature of the wave function (as described by Schrödinger's equation) indicate that there are no local hidden variables that definitively determine the state of a particle before measurement. This implies that the behavior of subatomic particles is not absolutely predetermined but only expressed in terms of probability, suggesting an ontological indeterminism. 93.71.159.59 (talk) 15:01, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

As you see from Interpretations of quantum mechanics#Comparisons, there is no consensus upon metaphysical indeterminism.

And to call the Copenhagen interpretation "the standard interpretation" is dated. tgeorgescu (talk) 15:36, 2 March 2025 (UTC)