Talk:Brokpa

Aryan valley nominated for deletion.

The page on Aryan valley has been nominated for deletion. You can find the deletion discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Aryan valley. Please feel free to add your comments since that topic intersects with the topic of this page. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 00:20, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Population of Brokpa

Elinruby, kautilya3,

Brokpa is a name given by Ladakhis .however their native and true name is Minaro. Traditionally. In ancient time. Minaro is a Ethnic group speaking Minaro langauge and following Minaro religion . These people were concentrated in Aryan valley ( Dha ,Hanu ,Garkon , Darchik). The all people of Dha ,hanu ,Garkon ans Darchik are Minaro. However Traditionally the Minaro people were also Hamlets like Sharchey ,Chulichan and batalik in India . In chulichan there were a mixture of Minaro with Tibetan muslim . There were only two household of Minaro in Tsirmo(silmo) and Lalung . And Ganokh village was inhabited by Minaro.

In ancient time , all of them use to follow :Minaro religion which is animism :worship of their own sprits , they had a rituals like sacrifice a goat to their own spirit who keep a eye on their area and protect them from any kind of misfortune. They used to have a Sabdak ,where they used to offer a small price of food before eating them .They don't use to take the milk of cow, They don't use to eat the meat of cow , they had social restrictions to use any kind related to cow because it's considered bad for them.

Festivals: They had their festival which is used like Bono-na ,which is used to celebrate to Thanksgiving their Dieties for good crops . Traditional dresses: They had their. Unique traditional dresses . Greetings: they had their unique way of greetings which is mentioned by a British explorer in 19 century.

AT present : Only the people of dha ,hanu ,Garkon and Darchik have still retained their ancient culture , festival ,rituals , religion ,dresses , traditional folk song .

These people of dha ,hanu ,Garkone and Darchik have superficially accepted Buddhism, however these people still follows their ancient culture and religion side by side . And they still call themselves ' Minaro'. And more interestingly still these people follows polygamy and marries only in their own community to keep them pure Minaro.

However, The Minaro who was settled in Ganokh , Sharchey and few of them are in chulichan etc . They are converted to strictly Shia Islam . They follows islamic cultural. Since their conversion of Islam , they have forgotten their ancient culture , traditional, religion . Only they speaks ' Minaro' langauge .

Interestingly ,now the Minaro of Aryan valley doesn't consider them their own community . Now ,the muslim Minaro are openly married with their muslim neighbour like Balti etc .

2: There is not a single Hindu Minaro, no Minaro have got converted to hindu .so the brokpa page says there is some Hindu brokpa which is not true ,if there is any then please mention any single articles showing them . They are mostly Buddhist Dards who still practice their ancient religion . And there are fewer strictly Shia brokpa who no longer practice any single ritual of their past . Conclusion: 1:Should we consider the Muslim Brokpa a Minaro? Because they are strictly musium followers and mingled with their neighbours muslim? 2: can we have a more correct number of Minaro population and their religion? 3: For example:In kalash people , there is a statement"people in nuristan had the same culture and practised a faith very similar to that of the Kalash, differing in a few minor particulars.". However the people who left the kalasha religion are not considered kalsha people ,they are given a lower important . So , should we also consider the Muslim Minaro who left their ancient religion and mingled with their neighbours muslim as Minaro? I want to have a Discussion , i don't want to blindly go and change without having a Discussion . collaboration and discussion is one of the policies of wikepedia . 3: The article of Brokpa needs to have a correct figure after a series of discussion with source . The present Brokpa articles needs improvement Minaro123 (talk) 09:54, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

@Minaro123:Both by the Kalasha society and the government, the Kalash people who converted to Islam are still considered to be members of the Kalasha ethnicity but not the Kalasha religion. They are further divided into two groups, the 5,000-person northern Kalash population which practises animism with a Muslim minority, and the 3,000-person southern Kalash population which practises Islam with a minority of Animists. And let me be clear about one thing: Yes, the Nuristanis and Kalash people practised a kind of similar Kafiristani religion that was followed throughout northern Pakistan, but the Kalash and Nuristanis are two distinct ethnic groups that are separated by genetics rather than religion. Hassan Janhal (talk) 12:35, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

I agree. Although I am focused on this one at the moment. If Minaro is a cultural designation -- and there are parallels to this among the North American indigenous, so this is not exactly unheard of -- then genetic studies are irrelevant. As an aside, the term Bropka also seems to be likely erroneous and due to British amateurs adopting the nomenclature of another ethnic group. There is a parallel to this in North America, where 9th-century ruins were ascribed to the "Anasazi" because that is what the Navajo told them. Come to find out "Anasazi" means "enemies" in the Navajo language. They are now known as the "Pueblo ancestors". We call people by the name the call themselves. Look it up. Question: do the Muslims Consider themselves Minaro? It sounds to me like they want to assimilate. But bottom line, yes, we should discuss this cultural vs genetic thing.Elinruby (talk) 11:28, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

The muslim doesn't call themselves minaro , there is not a single articles written about them Minaro123 (talk) 11:43, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

@Elinruby:In my opinion, the number of Brokpas who adhere to their ancestral faith should be noted in a separate article specifically on the Brokpa religion, but this article should also note the number of Brokpas who practise other religions, such as Animism, Buddhism, Islam, and Hinduism (If any). Hassan Janhal (talk) 12:38, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Hassan Janhal I am not necessarily against a separate article about the religion, although I suspect that it too would be repressed in the way that Aryan valley is currently being brigaded. I am just an outsider trying to ask honest questions in an effort to clarify. The "Bropka" designation seems as though it is used in different ways by different people. But if it is a cultural designation, then language and religion are designators/proxies of religion, at least where I come from. Minaro123 seems to be talking about animist Brokskat speakers who grow barley and apricots. According to him, those who practice Shia and intermarry with the Balti are not Minaro because they do not practice the religion. Right now I am just trying to explore the opinions that underlie this strife, without attempting to determine who is "right". It does trouble me that we are trying to lump several different cultural groups into one designation as "hill-dwellers". But I am very willing to discuss this on my talk page, if you are interested. I am actually thinking that perhaps the solution might instead be a separate page about the Minaro, and then this page can be about the Ladakhi word Brokpa and the various groups it is applied to. Elinruby (talk) 11:44, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

@Elinruby: The Brokpas are always referred to as Buddhist Dards in the materials that I have been able to find; they are never described as practising animism. Are there any references for Animist Brokpas? and does Minaro123 have any references to support his claim that Brokpas who practise religions other than Animism do not go by the name Minaro? If not then it violates one of Wikipedia's three core content policy of not having original research. And yes, I'm willing to participate in the discussion about this topic on your talk page. Hassan Janhal (talk) 12:42, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Please see the page move discussion above before making fresh proposals. Wikipedia nomenclature follows WP:COMMONNAME, not based on what is "right".

Hassan Janhal, the move discussion also gravitated to the view that the "Brokpa" term is currnetly in use for only the "central" group (central Ladakh + Ganokh in Baltistan). These people apparently arrived in the first millennium AD and speak Brokskat, which has been called the "oldest surviving Dardic language". -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:59, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: did make a valid point in this instance. Hassan Janhal (talk) 12:15, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Brokskat

"Oldest surviving Dardic language" is nonsense; I have nil idea what it means and would be surprised to see any serious linguist reiterate the claim. Besides, I added the very-obvious Purik (TB) influence from the immediate neighbors. TrangaBellam (talk) 18:22, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

I don't think anybody would take it at face value based on Ethnologue. But I suppose it means that it is pretty old, and that it retained its archaic features much more than other varieties of Shina. for our purposes, it also means that these people split off from their parent very long ago, and they are nothing like the neo-Brokpa that arrived in the 16th-17th centuries. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:55, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Bibliography

• Aggarwal, Ravina

• 2004. Beyond Lines of Control: Performance and Politics on the Disputed Borders of Ladakh, India. Durham: Duke University Press. doi:10.2307/j.ctv125jfkn

• van Beek, Martijn

• 1996. Identity Fetishism and the Art of Representation: The Long Struggle for Regional Autonomy in Ladakh. PhD diss., Cornell University. ProQuest 304304909

• Bhan, Mona

• 2006. Visible Margins: State, Identity & Development among Brogpas of Ladakh. PhD diss., Rutgers University. ProQuest 305292033

• Vohra, Rohit

• 1986. “History of Dards and the Concept of Minaro Traditions among the Buddhist Dards in Ladakh,” In Relevant Research on Ladakh, eds., Detlef Kantowsky & Reinhard Sander. London : Weltforum Verlag, Koln.
• 1989. An Ethnography: The Buddhist Dards of Ladakh. Luxembourg: Skydie Brown International.
• 1989. The Religion of the Dards in Ladakh. Luxembourg: Skydie Brown International.

TrangaBellam (talk) 19:56, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

The Brokpa phenomenon

This 3D satellite image of at Kharmang in Baltistan, illustrates the Brokpa phenomenon. You see the reguar village spread out along the (Indus) valley floor. And there are other people occupying some level ground on hilltops, figuring out how to channel the water there and growing food. These are the people that the Baltis called "Brokpa" (highlander).

Almost all the Brokpa villages are perched on high ground like this, especially in areas where the valley floor doesn't exist at all (the river taking up the entire valley). The highest of these locations is Khalatse, where Rohit Vohra located a Brokpa fort and postulated that it was their original capital.

The traditional trade route between Baltistan and Ladakh short-circuited this entire section of the Indus valley between Marol and Khalatse, using the Suru Valley via Kargil instead. The present Highway 1 does the same. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:21, 12 January 2023 (UTC)