Talk:44 Nysa

Source for satellite designation

What's the source for the designation "S/2026 (44) 1"? I can find it being used in the press release/preprint, but it doesn't seem to be official. As noted in the discussion at Talk:Minor-planet moon#Source of the provisional designations?, we need to be careful taking satellite designations from sources other than CBAT or the MPC. Other sources, although generally considered reliable, are known to be prone to errors when it comes to designations. I believe the consensus from that discussion was to remove all such designations from Wikipedia if they haven't been officially designated, even if they have been used in otherwise reliable sources. I may be mistaken, but it looks to me like "S/2026 44 1" is yet another example of that. Johnston's Archive, who nowadays are mostly reliable when it comes to designations (see the section about them in the discussion linked above), have the satellite of 44 Nysa as undesignated in the update from 2 August 2026.

I am tagging Nrco0e, who have worked on the Nysa article recently and who have participated in the previous discussion. Renerpho (talk) 22:34, 5 August 2026 (UTC)

@Renerpho: The "S/2026 (44) 1" designation was not used on Wikipedia or anywhere else before the paper and press release. We can safely say that it originated from the press release and Minker et al. paper. Nrco0e (talk • contribs) 22:37, 5 August 2026 (UTC)

I never suspected that it originated on Wikipedia. I'm just saying we shouldn't use it. Renerpho (talk) 22:39, 5 August 2026 (UTC)

Well, it isn't wrong and it's been widely reported by the press release and tertiary sources reporting on that, so it's fine in this case (unlike the Altjira satellite designation which is incorrect). Nrco0e (talk • contribs) 22:42, 5 August 2026 (UTC)

Whether it is correct or not is impossible to say. Maybe it conforms to the correct format, but I'm not convinced that that's relevant. Press releases are not reliable sources for designations. That all the tertiary sources repeat what the press release says isn't surprising, that's the purpose of a press release. That doesn't make that particular part of the press release more reliable. Renerpho (talk) 22:48, 5 August 2026 (UTC)

OK.... now you're just agonizing over the minutest of details. I still stand by using this designation for the reasons I've stated. I'm not gonna argue any further because there's far more important things in the article to worry about than.... this. Nrco0e (talk • contribs) 22:54, 5 August 2026 (UTC)

There's no reliable source to explicitly back up our doubts whether the satellite designation is correct or not. I think for this particular case, verifiability (and the verifiability, not truth essay) takes precedence because the mention of S/2026 (44) 1 in primary and secondary sources is overwhelmingly large. Nrco0e (talk • contribs) 22:58, 5 August 2026 (UTC)

Well, we've had cases that were similar to this. Squannit (moon), for example. In , I explained why I thought it was necessary to remove its non-existent designation from Wikipedia, despite being reported widely in a variety of sources. That may or may not have been the correct thing to do; there have been no complaints so far, and I still think it was better to get rid of it.

I don't think this is a minute detail. It's a question of where to draw the line at which we let unofficial designations stand. Renerpho (talk) 23:10, 5 August 2026 (UTC)

I have replaced"provisional designation" in the article by "informal designation" (no wikilink). I hope this better reflects that the designation was not formally announced, but was given by the discoverers. Renerpho (talk) 23:16, 5 August 2026 (UTC)

Alright, that works! Nrco0e (talk • contribs) 23:19, 5 August 2026 (UTC)

Who named Nysa?

@Renerpho and Scourgezoned: I'm starting to dig into Nysa's discovery history and I've run into a problem. I see two conflicting accounts on whoever named Nysa: Lutz D. Schmadel's Dictionary of Minor Planet Names claims that Nysa was named by Alexander von Humboldt, whereas Benjamin Apthorp Gould of The Astronomical Journal claimed that the name was selected by German astronomer Robert Luther in December 1857. I'm not sure if there's any other source that corroborates any of these accounts and I haven't checked if there's another historical source on Nysa's naming. It's late for me so I can't check right now. If y'all have the time, can you help find more sources on Nysa's naming? Thanks! Nrco0e (talk • contribs) 09:28, 7 August 2026 (UTC)

@Nrco0e: I don't know where the claim about Robert Luther comes from. Ironically though, Schmadel is also wrong, kind of. In ("Natur und Offenbarung", Müster 1857, vol.3, p.384), it says (first the original German, then my English translation):

Entdeckung eines neuen Planeten. Am 27sten Juni entdeckte der im Aufsuchen der Planeten unermüdliche Goldschmidt abermals einen neuen Planeten und zwar gerade einen Monat später, als er den in dem letzten Hefte erwähnten Planeten entdeckt hatte. Es ist dieser neueste Planet der 45ste der kleinen Planeten, deren Bahn zwischen dem Jupiter und Mars fällt. Alexander von Humboldt hat dem 44sten von Goldschmidt entdeckten Planeten den Namen Nysa ertheilt. Nach der Mythologie war Nysa eine Tochter des Aristäus, welcher Jupiter die Erziehung des kleinen Bachus übergab.

Discovery of a New Planet. On 27 June, Goldschmidt, indefatigable in his search for planets, once again discovered a new planet, exactly one month after he had discovered the planet mentioned in the previous issue. This newest planet is the 45th of the minor planets whose orbits lie between Jupiter and Mars. Alexander von Humboldt has given the name Nysa to the 44th planet discovered by Goldschmidt. According to mythology, Nysa was a daughter of Aristaeus, to whom Jupiter entrusted the upbringing of the young Bacchus.

The first part of this is talking about Goldschmidt's discovery of 45 Eugenia in June 1857, just a month after his discovery of asteroid 44. It then mentions that, in the meantime, von Humboldt had named that asteroid after Nysa.

This was published in July 1857, clearly rendering the claim that Luther selected the name in December 1857 null and void. Another article in the same journal provides the backstory: On page 336 of the previous issue (same volume, one month earlier), a direct quote from a letter by Goldschmidt to the author from the 15th of June confirms that he had always hoped to one day let von Humboldt name one of his asteroids, and that this would be the one:

Den 44. kleinen Planeten entdeckte enen Monat darauf am 27. Mai Abends 11 Uhr Herr Hermann Goldschmidt in Paris im Sternbilde der Wage. Herr Goldschmidt theilt uns unter dem 15. d. [Juni] in Betreff des dem Planeten zu gebenden Namen mit: "Mein Wunsch ist endlich in Erfüllung gegangen, dem Herrn von Humboldt die Benennung eines von mir entdeckten Planeten zu überlassen."

The 44th minor planet was discovered one month later, on 27 May at 11 p.m., by Mr Hermann Goldschmidt in Paris, in the constellation Libra. Writing to us on the 15th of the current month [June], Mr Goldschmidt informs us concerning the name to be given to the planet: "My wish has finally been fulfilled, to leave the naming of one of the planets I have discovered to Mr von Humboldt."

Also, there are sources from later in the 19th century, like Weiss's Wunder des Himmels from 1886, p.435, that clearly attribute the name to von Humboldt. Renerpho (talk) 16:50, 7 August 2026 (UTC)

Von Humboldt's response to Goldschmidt survives, at least in parts, in a French translation reproduced in L'Ami des sciences, 1857, vol.3, p.493. It's... a lot of words:

La Planète Nysa. — M. Goldschmidt avait prié M. de Humboldt de donner un nom à la 44e petite planète. L'illustre savant a choisi celui de Nysa, nymphe à laquelle était confiée l'éducation du jeune Bacchus. La lettre de M. de Humboldt à M. Goldschmidt mérite d'être reproduite ; la voici :
« Affaissé sous le poids de l'âge et des infirmités, succombant presque à une correspondance entièrement étrangère à la science, mais imposée par les devoirs de ma position, je vous prierai, Monsieur, de vouloir bien excuser ma lenteur à vous témoigner ma reconnaissance pour votre aimable communication, et surtout à vous exprimer les sentiments de la très haute considération qui, universellement et par droit légitime, sont acquis aux grands succès qui ont couronné votre activité astronomique.
« Ce que la foule se complaît à nommer hasard est la conquête de votre sagacité incomparable, de votre connaissance profonde du ciel, de votre persévérance que rien ne lasse, et surtout, enfin, de ce véritable amour de la science qui sait trouver et goûter dans sa satisfaction intérieure la plus noble des récompenses ; vous découvrez parce que vous savez chercher. Mes bons amis MM. Encke, Bruhns, d'Arrest, Brunnow, qui sont venus me voir, s'associent à moi dans l'expression de leur haute estime pour vous et votre noble ardeur. »

In English:

The Planet Nysa. — Mr Goldschmidt had asked Mr von Humboldt to give a name to the 44th minor planet. The illustrious scholar chose the name Nysa, the nymph to whom the upbringing of the young Bacchus had been entrusted. Mr von Humboldt's letter to Mr Goldschmidt deserves to be reproduced; here it is:
"Bowed down beneath the weight of age and infirmity, and almost overwhelmed by a correspondence wholly unrelated to science, but imposed upon me by the duties of my position, I must ask you, Sir, to be so kind as to excuse my delay in expressing my gratitude for your kind communication, and above all in conveying to you the feelings of the very highest esteem which, universally and by legitimate right, have been earned by the great successes that have crowned your astronomical activity.
"What the multitude delights in calling chance is the conquest of your incomparable sagacity, your profound knowledge of the heavens, your indefatigable perseverance, and, above all, of that true love of science which knows how to find and savour in its own inward satisfaction the noblest of rewards; you discover because you know how to search. My good friends Messrs Encke, Bruhns, d'Arrest, and Brunnow, who have come to see me, join me in expressing their high esteem for you and for your noble ardour."

I think it's clear that this was a special occasion for Goldschmidt; and that von Humboldt felt honoured by his invitation to name the object. What a lovely story! By the way, "vous découvrez parce que vous savez chercher" (literally: "you discover because you know how to search") works nicely as a standalone quote. Renerpho (talk) 17:12, 7 August 2026 (UTC)

There is a problem with the origin of the name Nysa. The German article from 1857 that I've quoted above notes that Humboldt explicitly named the asteroid after Nysa, one of the daughters of Aristaeus. Indeed, this is a documented mythological figure, compare and its source. The problem is that Schmadel gets this wrong, and there is no article about that Nysa on the English Wikipedia (not even the article about Aristaeus mentions her). We currently link the name to the mythological mountain of Nysa, covered in Nysa (mythology), and so does Schmadel; but this seems to be a (subtle) mistake. The asteroid is named after de:Nysa (Amme) (yes, the German Wikipedia has an article!). The mountain is also named after her, and the nymph lived at the mountain, but they're not the same thing. It's like saying that Washington D.C. was named after Mount Washington.

The German Wikipedia article about Nysa the mountain covers that origin of its name; the English article does not. There seems to be an odd disconnect between the English and German literature on this particular aspect of Greek mythology. Renerpho (talk) 17:48, 7 August 2026 (UTC)

Most early, non-English sources appear to get this right. For example, Littre's Dictionnaire de la langue française from 1877, supplements, letter N, p.244, gives the correct etymology of the name of asteroid 44 Nysa: "La 44e planète télescopique, découverte en 1857 par M. Goldschmidt. ETYM. Νῦσα, fille d'Aristée, laquelle éleva Bacchus." -- Named after Nysa, a daughter of Aristaeus, who raised Bacchus.

I've been wondering: How would Schmadel, who was German and who wrote his dictionary in German, make the mistake of not looking at those old sources. Then I noticed that Schmadel gives Herget's 1955 The names of the minor planets as his source for the name and its origin. Notably, that is an American publication, published in English. I suspect the problem may start there. Renerpho (talk) 18:48, 7 August 2026 (UTC)

Good catch; I really couldn't find anything as to the origins, thanks for digging that up. thunkii (talk) 19:24, 7 August 2026 (UTC)

@Renerpho: Wow!! This is fantastically thorough detective work, thank you so much!! Nrco0e (talk • contribs) 20:20, 7 August 2026 (UTC)

@Nrco0e: You're welcome! Do you still have access to Herget's book? I think we looked at it over on the Discord server at some time, was it for Hygiea or something? I don't remember. It could be interesting to see what exactly Herget wrote about Nysa. Renerpho (talk) 20:24, 7 August 2026 (UTC)

No, sadly. I'll be able to retrieve it when I get back to university in two months. Nrco0e (talk • contribs) 20:27, 7 August 2026 (UTC)

It survived at least 70 years with a false etymology. It will manage a few more months... Although I think there's enough material now to correct the mistake. Renerpho (talk) 20:33, 7 August 2026 (UTC)

@Renerpho: I'd like to write out the full quotes verbatim in the references (via the |quote = parameter in Template:Cite book). Should I use the original language, your translation, or both? Nrco0e (talk • contribs) 01:10, 8 August 2026 (UTC)

By the way, I think you should inform Kate Minker on the correct origin of Nysa's name. It's on arXiv and I think it can be corrected before publication on A&A. I tried emailing her a week ago, but it seems like it fell through her spam folder... Nrco0e (talk • contribs) 02:20, 8 August 2026 (UTC)

I just emailed Kate Minker about the Nysa etymology issue. Now to wait if she replies... Well, it can't hurt if you or somebody else decides to email her about the same thing. That'd bring more attention to this issue (hopefully) :P Nrco0e (talk • contribs) 05:12, 8 August 2026 (UTC)

I've emailed her as well. Renerpho (talk) 09:50, 8 August 2026 (UTC)

I've corrected Nysa's entry in Meanings of minor-planet names: 1–1000. Nrco0e (talk • contribs) 08:16, 8 August 2026 (UTC)

@Renerpho: Nysa (nymph) is actually Macris... who not only nursed Dionysus, but also Hera??? Nrco0e (talk • contribs) 08:31, 8 August 2026 (UTC)

Oh, now look at that! Nice to see we've got an article about her after all. Renerpho (talk) 09:12, 8 August 2026 (UTC)

Mystery solved (+ history done)

Now that we've solved the question of who named Nysa, I'll declare it here in case someone still didn't get the memo. I'll also mention that I've finished writing the "Discovery and naming" section (and double-checking each sentence's citations there). Feedback is welcome! Nrco0e (talk • contribs) 07:53, 8 August 2026 (UTC)

@Nrco0e: Thanks! Regarding your question about the citation template: That's what the "trans-quote" parameter is for. Renerpho (talk) 10:28, 8 August 2026 (UTC)

@Nrco0e: In 44 Nysa#Discovery and naming, you write that "Nysa was instead represented by its minor planet number 44 (enclosed in parentheses)". I think that's not quite true. It was represented by the number 44 in a circle 44, which was rendered "(44)" in print for what I believe are purely typographical reasons. Unfortunately, I don't have a source yet to back that up. Maybe you can help me find something? Renerpho (talk) 09:11, 11 August 2026 (UTC)

According to , the switch from circles to parentheses happened in 1858, a year after the discovery of Nysa ("Here again The Astronomical Journal (1858) led the charge. Beginning in 1858 it marked newly discovered asteroids by enclosing their number in parentheses rather than a circle. Once the asteroid was firmly established in the hierarchy, the symbol was then changed to the number enclosed by a circle"). Something similar is also said on Minor-planet designation#History, with the claim that "By the late 1850s, the circle had been simplified to parentheses, (4) and (4) Vesta, which was easier to typeset." -- However, that claim lacks a citation, and it ignores the important distinction from the second half of the quote: "Once the asteroid was firmly established in the hierarchy, the symbol was then changed to the number enclosed by a circle". Renerpho (talk) 09:20, 11 August 2026 (UTC)

@Kwamikagami: Maybe you can help us. The sentence about this being easier to typeset was added by you in Special:Diff/239856539 (20 September 2008). I know, that's a long time ago, but maybe you have an idea where you got this from? Thanks! (I believe I got it from Wikipedia.) Renerpho (talk) 09:36, 11 August 2026 (UTC)