Talk:Vandals/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

verification problem: Jordanes and Gutasaga

We currently have:

Both Jordanes in his Getica and the Gotlandic Gutasaga tell that the Goths and Vandals migrated from southern Scandinavia[2][3][4]

• 2. "Germanic peoples". Encyclopædia Britannica Online. Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc. Retrieved 8 March 2014.[permanent dead link]
• 3. "History of Europe: Barbarian migrations and invasions: The Germans and Huns". Encyclopædia Britannica Online. Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc. Archived from the original on 2014-07-14. Retrieved 8 March 2014.
• 4. Waldman & Mason 2006, pp. 821–825

Two concerns:

• None of these three sources seems to mention the Getica or Gutasaga. As far I can see, this is not correct, and is original to WP.
• These are old tertiary sources giving general notes, so not strong sources for anything controversial. However, I can not find any OTHER sources which confirm this sentence we have. (Adding together lots and lots of similar tertiary sources does not improve things in such a case.)
• We do know from good sources that there was a tradition in older history writing of accepting the general remark of Jordanes that Scandinavia was a "womb of nations" but we also know that this position, even concerning peoples he specifically named, is no longer taken seriously in any simple way any more.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:19, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Also there is a related sentence in the lead with the same 3 sources.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:21, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

I do not think the Vandals are mentioned at all in the Gutasaga. In Jordanes and Paul the Deacon they seem to be first encountered on the mainland. (Meaning Paul the Deacon's Lombard story parallels the older story of Jordanes, as scholars often note.) Again, I post here, hoping that if anyone sees something I am missing, they will mention it.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 12:27, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

I agree with your assessment of Jordanes, in chapter 4 he gives Skadza/ scandinavia as the place of origin for the Goth, who then encountered the Vandals AFTER sailing to the mainland. I believe the issue here might be a mix-up based on similar names: the area the Vandals occupied when first encountering the Goth is given by Jordanes as Gothiscandza, which sounds similar to 'Gothland'/ 'Gothenland' in southern Sweden, but is an entirely different area around the river Vistula. Trekki 200 (talk) 15:50, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

removed medieval section

I now removed this after noting the problems more than a year ago. There presumably are things to be said about medieval mentions (Adam of Bremen? Paul the Deacon?) but that would look quite different to this. The information we have been attributing to medieval sources Jordanes etc here does not appear to come from those sources at all.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 23:04, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Both [[Jordanes]] in his [[Getica]] and the Gotlandic [[Gutasaga]] tell that the [[Goths]] and Vandals migrated from southern [[Scandinavia]]<ref name=EB_Germanic_Peoples>{{cite encyclopedia |url=http://global.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/231063/Germanic-peoples/Vandal |title=Germanic peoples |encyclopedia=[[Encyclopædia Britannica Online]] |publisher=[[Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc.]] |access-date=8 March 2014 }}{{Dead link|date=October 2018 |bot=InternetArchiveBot |fix-attempted=yes }}</ref><ref name=EB_Europe>{{cite encyclopedia |url=http://global.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/195896/history-of-Europe/58257/Barbarian-migrations-and-invasions |title=History of Europe: Barbarian migrations and invasions: The Germans and Huns |encyclopedia=[[Encyclopædia Britannica Online]] |publisher=[[Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc.]] |access-date=8 March 2014 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20140714192928/http://global.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/195896/history-of-Europe/58257/Barbarian-migrations-and-invasions |archive-date=2014-07-14 |url-status=live }}</ref><ref name=E_Vandals>{{harvnb|Waldman|Mason|2006|pp=821–825}}</ref>{{failed verification|date=March 2020}} to the area between the lower [[Oder River|Oder]] and [[Vistula]] prior to the 2nd century BC, and settled in [[Silesia]] from around 120 BC.<ref name=E_Vandals/>{{failed verification|date=March 2020}}