Talk:Tim Watson-Munro

Feedback from New Page Review process

I left the following feedback for the creator/future reviewers while reviewing this article: Nice job on the article. But then again, I would expect that from you (I didn't realize it was your article until I started to write my little blurb of encouragement).

Onel5969 ^{TT me} 12:39, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Bruxton (talk) 18:17, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that Tim Watson-Munro was the psychologist responsible for treating mass murderer Julian Knight? Source: https://www.heraldsun.com.au/truecrimeaustralia/police-courts-victoria/how-criminal-psychologist-came-face-to-face-with-hoddle-st-monster-julian-knight/news-story/a853333029c107cc42ff48784d23cf08
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Wanda Szuman
  • Comment:

Created by MaxnaCarta (talk). Self-nominated at 12:51, 2 May 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Tim Watson-Munro; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

• I'll take this one. AdoTang (talk) 20:04, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy compliance:

• Adequate sourcing: - Two lines, under Career and Youth, don't seem to be sourced, and I've marked them with citation needed tags. I can't access the nearest citations due to paywalls; if those are the sources, move them there or something like that.
• Neutral:
• Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing: - Part of Mr Cruel seems to have been copied from this podcast episode's description. Reword it.

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: - Offline/paywalled citation accepted in good faith Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Address the two issues I've indicated and we should be good to go. AdoTang (talk) 20:04, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Reply: Thanks @AdoTang:! Appreciate the feedback. The citations have been addressed. Regarding the copying, I actually copied that sentence directly from the Wikipedia article on Mr Cruel! I did attribute properly. A reminder that I need to check the copyvio status of articles I borrow text from in future. I have re-worded both my article and the article I took the text from. Good find. Thank you! MaxnaCarta (talk) 01:28, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Aside some very light cleanups from me (like a citation that linked to the wrong "ABC News"; I understand, there's like three of them), I can see everything's been addressed. We should be good to go. AdoTang (talk) 03:43, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

The flow is greatly interrupted by the many sections and sub sections. Bruxton (talk) 18:16, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Tim Watson-Munro/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Amitchell125 (talk · contribs) 14:34, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

@Amitchell125 ty! please let me know how you go. — MaxnaCarta  ( 💬 • 📝 ) 04:59, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Happy to review the article. AM

Review comments

Lead section / infobox

• Link M.A. in the infobox. Ditto Psychology

Y Done, thank you

• (born 1952/1953) – needs to be included in the early life section.

Y

• Add {{Australian English}} to the talk page, and {{Use Australian English}} at the top of the article, if you feel this needs to be done.

Y Added the Use Aus English template. I feel the other "warning" style template is only needed where editors are bickering over which style/changing it regularly. I'll leave that one out.

1 Early life

• Link lumber yard (note spelling).

Y Linked and spelled correctly

• The section is cited using an autobiographical source. While the source is clearly able to support the text (WP:PROVEIT), it isn’t independent (WP:INDEPENDENT), and therefore should not be used as a reliable source on its own.

? For this one, I disagree. Per WP:ABOUTSELF: Self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves as long as the material is not exceptional or self-serving and the article is not primarily based on this primary source. For a small autobiographical statement I believe this source is fine on it's own. Any claims of achievement or notability are substantiated elsewhere by secondary independent sources.

We don't agree yet. WP:ABOUTSELF allows self-published sources to used under certain circumstances, one of which is that the source is not used to cite "claims about third parties" This means that He was initially educated at Sydney Grammar School, where he left to work in a lumber yard due to the harsh disciplinary environment needs a separate citation to verify the conditions at the school when Watson-Munro attended it. Amitchell125 (talk) 06:07, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

That's fair @Amitchell125, would "He was initially educated at Sydney Grammar School, where he left to work in a lumber yard due what he described as a "harsh disciplinary environment"? — MaxnaCarta  ( 💬 • 📝 ) 09:30, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

I think that would be a neat solution. Amitchell125 (talk) 14:23, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Y I have actually removed the harsh environment claim altogether. Not needed. Cheers for this — MaxnaCarta  ( 💬 • 📝 ) 04:03, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

2 Career

• Link criminal psychologist (Criminal psychology).

Y done

• is described as – by whom?

Y Fixed, by the Herald Sun

• This section’s three subsections are too short for them to have their own titles. Ditto the Views section.

Y have made these four parts into one section

It doesn't look like your edit saved. Done for you. AM

• Of the 200 murderers mentioned, three are given “detailed treatment”. I understand that not every major case can be discussed in the this section, but is there a reason for why these men were selected?

Because these are the three which have actually been discussed most in the press. I believe the selection of these three cases does not impact neutrality or lend undue weight. These are the highlights which demonstrate the sort of cases he is involved in and are notable in their own right.

Understood. I would mention (and cite) this in the article, in case the selection puzzles readers, as it did me. Amitchell125 (talk) 06:12, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

@Amitchell125 How would you go about describing this if you were writing this article? I'm a bit lost. I can't just write "The following cases are included because they are high profile". I think the citations themselves are evidence that these are the high profile ones...they are the ones with press coverage? If we were writing about an airline, we would only include the accidents that are themselves notable. So these three people I've included are notable in their own right with articles. I can't find any other cases he worked on that got significant attention. — MaxnaCarta  ( 💬 • 📝 ) 09:33, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

I'll get back to you on this. For the moment, I would imagine a few brief words at the top of the section will do, but the wording will take a bit of thought. Amitchell125 (talk) 14:14, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

I added "Three notable individuals Watson-Munro has worked with include the following:" Thoughts? — MaxnaCarta  ( 💬 • 📝 ) 04:41, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Either that or something like 'Three notable individuals Watson-Munro has worked with included Julian Knight, Alphonse Gangitan, and Mr Cruel' (the last two being linked). Amitchell125 (talk) 09:25, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Done — MaxnaCarta  ( 💬 • 📝 ) 10:20, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

2.1 Julian Knight

• Link marksmanship (Marksman).

Y done

• I would add a comma after 1987 Hoddle Street massacre.

Y done

2.2 Alphonse Gangitano

• Link Melbourne.

Y done

• Why now-deceased?

Y Agreed, nice c/e pickup. He clearly was not interviewed when dead...

• The sentence starting Gangitano was then released appears to be a run-on sentence. It should be split into two separate ones, between left the country and Watson-Munro expected.

Y Fixed

• his arrest for murder – readers may wish to be provided with further information about this crime, and I would consider adding some.

Y Added detail with reference.

2.3 Mr Cruel

• I would replace the link for child rapes to Types_of_rape#Rape_of_children, which imo leads to where readers expect it to.

Y done

• never identified should be hyphenated.

Y done

• Link profile the potential offender (Offender profiling).

Y done

3 Views

• The sentence needs copy editing to improve the English.

Watson-Munro has advocated for educating and informing victims - 'Watson-Munro is an advocate of educating and informing victims'? AM

All fixed now

Something's happened here as well.... Done for you. AM

3.1 Youth

• Watson-Munro in 1996 warned the child-welfare system in Victoria – needs to be more clearly written, as it’s not clear if the Victoria child-welfare system was warned by Watson-Munro, or whether he warned others about the system.

Y changed to Watson-Munro in 1996 voiced concerns that the child welfare system in Victoria was in "chaos and on the brink of collapse". He noted truancy and crime being committed by children in the care of the state and called for a royal commission into the government department responsible.

• 14 year old – ‘14-year-old’.

Y done

• while wandering around at night – the text needs to make it clearer that it was the boy who was wandering around.

Y Thanks for that. You're a great copyeditor. Love having these little English errors picked up! Changed to Watson-Munro was involved in assessing a 14-year-old boy who, while wandering around at night, murdered a taxi driver

Thank you very much! AM

• He has criticised – ‘Watson-Munro has criticised’ for the sake of clarity.

Y

• Add a comma after addressing.

Y

• socio economic - ‘socio-economic’

Y

• real issues of youth suicide – this needs to be better placed within the right context, perhaps by amending it to ‘real issues of youth suicide in Australia’.

Y

3.2 Ivan Milat

• This paragraph seems unencyclopedic, and I would delete it.

Y: Might come up with a sentence to move to Career one day, but you're right, the section as is appears rather sensationalist.

4 Controversy

• $1000 – it needs to be clear that these are Australian dollars.

Y

• bond – readers may not be clear about what this actually is.

Y Linked with explanation: 12 month good behaviour bond, a non-custodial sentence of good behaviour

• He was later that year was – needs copy editing.

Y done, now says He was later that year reprimanded

• I would add a comma after a psychologist.

Y Done

5 Personal life

• Watson-Munro is married to his second wife, Carla. His first wife Susan died of cancer. The information would be better written chronologically.

Y

Still not right, as it sounds as it his first wife is currently married to his second wife. AM

I believe this is addressed.

6 Works

• His 2017 book was published in Sydney, not Australia. The second one was published in Melbourne.

Y

(Not GA) this or this could perhaps be included in an External links section.

On hold

I'm putting the article on hold for a week until 22 August to allow time for the issues raised to be addressed. Regards, Amitchell125 (talk) 18:59, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

@Amitchell125 should be all fixed now :) — MaxnaCarta  ( 💬 • 📝 ) 10:28, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Passing

Passing the article, congratulations and thanks for your work.. Amitchell125 (talk) 15:57, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.