Talk:Soviet people

Ahistorical

I've edited this article to improve its accuracy. The term "Soviet people" (narod) only came into formal party doctrine after 1970, during Brezhnev's leadership. However, the article implied that this term was used throughout Soviet history. Even now, there are no citations to the use of the term, the source of the term. Another problem with the essay is that it had stated or implied that official policy was consistent from the beginning to the end of the regime. That's simply not the case. I've added a bit of a corrective by including reference to some things that are addressed in other WP articles, such as those on korenizatsiya and Russification. This article actually adds nothing to those articles, and in some respects (at least before it was edited) confuses things by its lack of citations and historical context for the term. I think it's a good candidate for deletion.--Mack2 09:10, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

List of notable Soviet people

I fail to see the point of this list. Everyone with an article on wikipedia is assumed to be notable, so this list could easily go into the tens of thousands. 2A02:A451:8B2D:1:3D10:EE4B:CB0F:30BA (talk) 18:32, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Genocide

A paragraph was added about Russia adopting the term "genocide of the Soviet people". The Meduza article (from 2026) simply reports that a law was passed making it a criminal offence to "deny or approve what it describes as the Nazi genocide of the Soviet people during World War II, or to insult the memory of genocide victims". It does not say anything about revisionism. This Novaya Gazeta Europe opinion piece (from 2024) was cited and notes that the memory of the Holocaust was demoted and this "makes a more thorough understanding of Nazi crimes impossible" while public dissent is not tolerated. This journal article (from 2024) also does not directly support what was written (particularly about this being used as a cover against the Holodomor or Molotov-Ribbentrop pact) and anyway this is a clear case of WP:SYNTH since only the Meduza article refers to the recent law that was passed. The editor in question was previously warned about this and of course they have continued with this to push a certain POV. Mellk (talk) 23:37, 7 May 2026 (UTC)

I should also add that this is tangentially related and is more of an issue of Holocaust trivialization (and such views must be attributed). Mellk (talk) 23:42, 7 May 2026 (UTC)

The law introduced by Russian government is a fact, there's no own research in it. You literally quoted NGE article which says exactly the same thing that I wrote in the added paragraph so I don't understand why you have reverted it in whole. For now it very much looks like your proposal for Wikipedia is to 1) pretend Putin's government never introduced the "genocide of Soviet people" law, 2) even if it was introduced, pretend it's just a random legislation that has nothing to do with Russian rewriting of history... both of which are literally mentioned in every single source I used. You claim "does not directly support what was written (...) about this being used as a cover against the Holodomor" but you clearly haven't read it as Holodomor is mentioned on page 18 of the linked article, where the authors mention Russia's reaction to German recognition of Holodomor as "genocide" as being "Russophobic". On page 22 the authors restate this very explicitly: "The professed benefits of a formal recognition of the genocide of the Soviet people are all illusory: seeking redress in the International Court of Justice; seeking reparations from Germany, possibly from other countries; frustrating the efforts by Ukraine toward international recognition of Holodomor as an act of genocide; invalidating comparison between Hitler’s Germany and Stalin’s Soviet Union". I would recommend you spend more time reading the linked sources and less throwing personal insults and threatening me with things. Cloud200 (talk) 10:38, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

You wrote the 2026 law was widely interpreted as an attempt to replace the Holocaust as the primary genocidal narrative of the World War II, absolving the USSR from any responsibility for its alliance with Nazi Germany 1939-1941 and counterbalancing the genocide committed by USSR during Holodomor. Which source states this? Mellk (talk) 10:41, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

Firstly, please be warned that any your next revert will violate WP:WAR so please engage in constructive debate here and refrain from destructive warring you started with your original revert. Cloud200 (talk) 10:55, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

Secondly, your question is directly answered by this fragment of the linked academic article: "frustrating the efforts by Ukraine toward international recognition of Holodomor as an act of genocide; invalidating comparison between Hitler’s Germany and Stalin’s Soviet Union". The first part refers to, well, Holodomor; the second refers to Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact. The NGE literally writes: "Russian diplomats have turned history on its head and moved closer to the position of Holocaust-deniers who believe that there was nothing exceptional in what the Nazis did to the Jews.", addressing your concerns about "revisionism". I'm happy to work on a more cautious wording if you don't like mine, but your reverts of my good-will edits are not acceptable as they are destructive and directly contradict the sources. Cloud200 (talk) 10:55, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

Firstly, you did not get consensus for your change. This is a fundamental policy. There is no reason for you to restore your disputed text that has issues before discussing this properly.

Secondly, the journal article was published in 2024 so it cannot say anything about a 2026 law. Even if we pretend otherwise, it does not say that the USSR committed genocide against Ukrainians (instead, it notes that Russia is frustrating Ukraine's efforts to gain recognition of the Holodomor as genocide from other countries). Nor does it say that it is some kind of cover for the pact.

Thirdly, the whole issue is about Holocaust trivialization, as I have already mentioned, so this is tangentially related, because the subject is about Soviet people as a concept. Just because "Soviet people" is mentioned somewhere does not mean it belongs here. Mellk (talk) 11:01, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

As I have clearly noted in my original edit's description, I've placed it here "out of any better place adding the "genocide of Soviet people" which becomes notable with Russia signing the law making it a crime to deny it". You might have started a constructive discussion here on better placement, but instead you chose to revert it completely, falsely accusing me of "a clear case of WP:SYNTH" and making threats on my personal talk page.

If you believe the wording about Holodomor genocide question was not justified, you could have changed that single word, but instead you chose to revert it completely, falsely accusing me of "a clear case of WP:SYNTH" and making threats on my personal talk page.

Lastly, by aggressive reverting you violated WP:PRESERVE because you could have chosen a dozen of other ways (mentioned above and in the policy) to indicate your perceived problems. Instead you chose the most disruptive one, violating the first guidance of WP:RV: "Reverting is appropriate mostly for vandalism or other disruptive edits", which was clearly not the case. Then you tried to game the WP:WRR by making an edit that was equivalent to a revert. Cloud200 (talk) 11:20, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

It is not a false accusation of synthesis. How can you explain a 2024 article talking about a 2026 law? No, you cannot, so read the policy carefully. I also said the whole thing does not belong here because it is about Holocaust trivialization, so what do you expect me to fix here? You forgot about WP:DON'T PRESERVE. Mellk (talk) 11:23, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

One again, quote from the article you've clearly not read: "But from 2020 on, the authorities began to foreground the concept of a “genocide of the Soviet people”, which portrays the Russian people as both the main victims of Nazism and its principal vanquishers." The introduction of the final version of the law, the Criminal Code change introduced in 2026, were sourced by this article, published on 13 February 2026, which also of course mentions the previous work on making it a crime: "Russia’s federal investigating authority. Bastrykin has repeatedly called for the genocide of the Soviet people to be enshrined in law". Regarding "Holocaust trivialization", there is a whole section about it in the NGE article, titled "Demoting the Holocaust". The paragraph I've added demonstrates the whole logical chain of events which started with promoting the idea of "genocide of the Soviet people" since 2019-2020 which ended in making it the law in 2026, along with the political reasons for doing so, to which your only criticism seems to be "why 2024 article, why 2024 article". Cloud200 (talk) 11:45, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

This is still WP:SYNTH because you are using what is said from the 2024 article about a 2026 law. Do not synthesize meaning from multiple sources to state or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of those sources. WP:RSOPINION also applies. Mellk (talk) 11:47, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

Bundling [10][11][12] at the end of the paragraph with several statements is a red flag for WP:SYNTH. Since our text is a summary of sources, I have no desire to figure out what sumarizes what. Please unbundle the refs so that I can verify that you faithfully interpreted the sources. Here is the contested text:

Since 2019 Russian government started promoting the concept of "genocide of Soviet people" whose official narrative was that the German World War II war crimes committed in Soviet Union were equivalent to the genocide of the whole "Soviet nation",

@Altenmann: Supporting citation 1: Weiss-Wendt (aka geso2), quote from page 1: "More than just a discursive threat, the concept of the genocide of the Soviet people has since 2020 been validated by Russian courts." The article describes how the process evolved in Russian historic research over years, setting the legal trigger the official investigation of Investigative Committe from 2019 (page 4) which is why I used the date, but it's not the hill I'm going to die for. The point is, Russian official structures started pushing the concept of "genocide of Soviet people" in the official discourse around 2019 but, more importantly, this has been coupled with actual prosecution by law enforcement, long before the final Criminal Code change of 2026. The argument "you are using what is said from the 2024 article about a 2026 law" simply ignores the fact that the 2026 law was the last stage a process that started years before, and it simply made easier the prosecution that was first attempted in 2019. Cloud200 (talk) 14:07, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

Supporting citation 2: Pakhaliuk (aka geso1), quote from the article: "But from 2020 on, the authorities began to foreground the concept of a “genocide of the Soviet people”, which portrays the Russian people as both the main victims of Nazism and its principal vanquishers. (...) The concept of the “genocide of the Soviet people” originated in the bowels of the Presidential Administration. I can testify to this personally as a former employee of the Russian Military Historical Society, which always opposed the concept and monitored its use closely. From an academic point of view, the “genocide of the Soviet people” is both meaningless and counterproductive, as it reduces Nazi extermination policy to a uniform entity, rather than understanding the phenomenon’s complex details."

with the Soviet Union being the primary victim of this category of war crimes.

See above, especially the second citation from Pakhaliuk. Cloud200 (talk) 14:07, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

The date of 19 April has officially been set to mark the Soviet genocide.

Sourced by Pakhaliuk: "A date — 19 April — has already been set to mark the Soviet genocide, and last year the date was added to the official school history textbook." Cloud200 (talk) 14:07, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

In 2026 this was followed by a law banning "denial of genocide of Soviet people".

Sourced by Meduza 2026 article aka geso3: "Vladimir Putin has signed a law making it a criminal offense to deny or approve what it describes as the Nazi genocide of the Soviet people during World War II". Cloud200 (talk) 14:07, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

The step, unprecedented in Soviet and modern Russian historiographies,

Sourced by both Weiss-Wendt and Pakhaliuk, who describe the law as "originated in the bowels of the Presidential Administration" and "after 2020", clearly describing it as something that was artificially invented 75 years after the war ended, and clearly linking it to the war started by Russia against Ukraine in 2014 (Pakhaliuk: "After the Russian invasion of Ukraine, absurd parallels began to be drawn between it and World War II", Weiss-Wendt: "The ongoing genocide trials in Russia, and the novel metanarrative that they project, come into sharp relief in the context of the ongoing Russian aggression against Ukraine"). Cloud200 (talk) 14:07, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

was interpreted by Konstantin Pakhaliuk, historian from Moscow state institute of international relations, as an attempt to replace the Holocaust as the primary genocidal narrative of the World War II,

For example, by Pakhaliuk, quoted above, especially the fragment where he says the "is both meaningless and counterproductive". Cloud200 (talk) 14:07, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

absolving the USSR from any responsibility for its alliance with Nazi Germany 1939-1941

and counterbalancing the genocide committed by USSR during Holodomor

Weiss-Wendt refers to both above points: "The professed benefits of a formal recognition of the genocide of the Soviet people are all illusory: seeking redress in the International Court of Justice; seeking reparations from Germany, possibly from other countries; frustrating the efforts by Ukraine toward international recognition of Holodomor as an act of genocide; invalidating comparison between Hitler’s Germany and Stalin’s Soviet Union" (page 22). Pakhaliuk: "A closer look at Nazi crimes is revealing, however, of the unpleasant parallels between them and the Russians that emerge." Cloud200 (talk) 14:07, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

References

@Cloud200: Please clear the tags. After that I can think of what can be done with the addition. --Altenmann >talk 11:57, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

@Cloud200: I asked you Please clear the tags. You did not clear the tags. I do not want your explanations, I want sources to verify. --Altenmann >talk 14:44, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

@Altenmann: Not sure if you noticed that every single of my "explanation", as you called them, also links specific reference and a relevant quote from the source, but here you go. Cloud200 (talk)

The issues still remain regarding WP:SYNTH. You are saying the 2026 law is a step, unprecedented in Soviet and modern Russian historiographies while citing sources published in 2024. Neither source also directly support the claim that this is an attempt at absolving the USSR from any responsibility for its alliance with Nazi Germany 1939-1941 and counterbalancing the genocide committed by USSR during Holodomor. This is also not something that Konstantin Pakhaliuk says even though it is worded as such. You simply say Weiss-Wendt refers to both above points but per the policy on verifiability, there needs to be a citation to a reliable source that directly supports the material, not something that vaguely refers to it. Weiss-Wendt says that the supposed benefits of a formal recognition of a genocide of the Soviet people would include frustrating Ukraine's campaign to gain from other countries recognition of the Holodomor as genocide and further invalidate comparisons between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. There is nothing about the non-aggression pact. What is unclear about these policies? If you still cannot understand the issue here, then I would suggest bringing this up to WP:NOR/N. Mellk (talk) 02:28, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

I have absolutely no problem with replacing the statements with a literal quote from Pakhaliuk: "frustrating the efforts by Ukraine toward international recognition of Holodomor as an act of genocide; invalidating comparison between Hitler’s Germany and Stalin’s Soviet Union". That was my very point from the very beginning - if you don't like the wording, change the wording, rather than reverting the whole paragraph. To reiterate:

1. The "unprecedented" refers to the whole process of promoting a novel perception of WW2 ("Since 2019 Russian government started promoting the concept of "genocide of Soviet people"). You continue sitting on the 2026 law while ignoring the whole preceding text. We can replace it with "these steps" or "the concept", whatever sounds more clear.
2. The whole "absolving..." phrase can be replaced with the phrase from Pakhaliuk.

Do these changes sound reasonable from your point of view? Cloud200 (talk) 10:46, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

This quote is from Weiss-Wendt, not Pakhaliuk (and he was referring to senator Alexei Pushkov's train of thought). Even if we ignore the 2026 law, I think you have missed the point made. The author is arguing that Russian courts are being used for lawfare as the genocide trials have no practical value. There is something similar in Belarus (including a law) and this is what is stated:

"It is a common knowledge that, after the Jews and Roma, in the German occupied Soviet territories Belorussians suffered the most, proportionally, at the hands of the Nazis [...] Who the Belorussian judiciary will prosecute for war crimes and genocide remains unclear since all perpetrators are as good as dead. How an internationally isolated country like Belarus plans to go about seeking international recognition of the 'genocide of the Belorussian people' is also a big question mark. In effect, the law on 'Genocide of the Belorussian People' has no practical value and is only declarative". (p. 12)

He mentions that Russia is following the footsteps of Belarus and this can therefore be used to fulfil its goals:

"Regardless, the Belorussian law might have triggered a new initiative in Russia [...] Russian government officials do not explicitly express what they eventually want to achieve by that; yet, their train of thought is discernible. A certain political scientist and local deputy for United Russia puts it as follows: International recognition of the Nazi genocide of the Soviet people would enable the Russian Federation to raise the issue of genocide with respect to particular atrocities in the International Court of Justice (ICJ) [...] In other words, Russia is seeking to internationally validate the claim of genocide of the Soviet people, which might then function as a legal leverage in pursuit of the Russian state's self-interest." (pp. 12–13)

An example of what this might achieve can be seen in the context of the war in Ukraine:

"In an effort to shape popular opinion, the regime might conceivably rely on general familiarity with the notion of genocide (in reference to the collective Soviet experience under German occupation) to make Russians internalize the notion of Ukrainian genocide in Donbas." (p. 21)

There was something similar during the Soviet period, but Russian trials now have not presented any new evidence:

"Incriminating evidence for atrocities such as Zhestianaia Gorka, Moglino, and Zmievsk gorge became available as early as 1940s. In the 1960s, Soviet authorities staged public war crimes trials centering on these and similar cases with the purpose of implicating Baltic emigres in the West." (p. 19)

Overall, this is tangentially related to the subject. Russian authorities are simply trying to find new ways of using history to fulfil its goals (even if it means deemphasizing the Holocaust further, which was already deemphasized since Soviet times). This is more to do with Holocaust trivialization and lawfare. Maybe in the former it might be possible to add something like this: Norwegian historian Anton Weiss-Wendt has argued that Russian courts have been used for lawfare through trials for "genocide against the Soviet people" to fulfil political goals, including in Ukraine. At the same time, this has received criticism from scholars for minimizing the proportion of Jews among the victims. Mellk (talk) 12:46, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

@Mellk: The concept "genocide of the Soviet people" is not Putin's invention out of blue sky. For example, in Soviet times, victims of Babi Yar were called "victims of fascism" implying it was part of the whole suffering of the Soviet people. And it was not Holocaust denial or trivialization. I thing you may guess why it was done. Also, there exists a reasonable narrative about genocide of various 'untermenschen', Slavic peoples, in particular. (Let me remind you that fathers-founders of Marxism were pretty much close to Hitler in their opinions about Slavic nations.) I am not going to do OR on the subject, just pointing at reasons why the described notion deserves mention, but it must be crafted carefully. --Altenmann >talk 12:15, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

You are correct, but I think even then it was described as a form of Holocaust trivialization or something similar. This is something mentioned at Holocaust denial#Soviet Union and Russia, but of course such views must be attributed. The concept of the Soviet people did not just include Slavs as well, but all nationalities. Mellk (talk) 12:21, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

I investigated the issue carefully, and conclude that the issue is irrelevant to the subject of this article.

1. This article talks about "Soviet people" as the ideological concept "new historical unity of peoples of different nationalities"
2. Putin in "genocide narrative" uses the expression in its generic non-loaded meaning. Because is many his other speeches he says, e.g, "Наш долг — не допустить оправдания геноцида граждан СССР и других злодеяний нацистских преступников. [Our duty is to prevent the justification of the genocide of the citizens of the USSR and other atrocities committed by Nazi criminals.
3. The law in question says in part, "aimed at the total or partial destruction of national, ethnic, and racial groups living on the territory of the USSR, through killing members of those groups, -- i.e., the law does not bundle these groups into the purported "new historical unity of peoples.
4. Last but not the least, when I was googling the internets, I run into ru:Геноцид советского народа, so here you go: Genocide of the Soviet people.

Case closed. --Altenmann >talk 00:16, 10 May 2026 (UTC)

@Altenmann: Works for me, thanks for helping to resolve this. Cloud200 (talk) 10:03, 11 May 2026 (UTC)