Talk:Snowdon

Grid reference

How about a grid reference for Snowdon? I think the grid used by the Ordnance Survey is pretty standard. Magnus 10:05 Apr 29, 2003 (UTC)

Changing article name re: name change?

I suggest changing the name of the article & body of the article to reflect the official name change from Snowdon to Yr Wyddfa, (for example: Title changing from Snowdon to Yr Wyddfa (Snowdon)) and where mentioned from Snowdonia to Eryri.

Further, I suggest changing the arrangement of name translations in the body of the article from English first to Welsh first, as they are Welsh names for a Welsh mountain in Wales, not England.

I'm not going to just go ahead & make these changes without creating a topic & some discussion around it as they're pretty major changes and I do believe they should be discussed & considered before any edits are committed. CMDR Quillon (talk) 22:44, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

You need to consider WP:COMMONNAME and WP:NAMECHANGES, and request a WP:RM proposing the title be moved to Yr Wyddfa. Should the RM be successful, the article will use Yr Wyddfa over Snowdon to match the title then. See the previous (failed) requested move for an idea. DankJae 22:51, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm aware of that which is why I didn't start a move request straight off the bat :) as the previous one failed I wasn't expecting this to succeed either, so it was more of a suggestion/discourse starter than a serious request. Thanks, man :) CMDR Quillon (talk) 21:45, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

As this is English language Wikipedia and the common name in English is Snowdon then the page should remain as Snowdon. A change of the official name is irrelevant to Wikipedia (and there is no official name for something like a mountain anyway).

You are unlikely to find any opposition to changing the name to yr widdfa in Welsh language Wikipedia. 195.213.41.163 (talk) 12:37, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Yr Wyddfa not widdfa 2.27.239.243 (talk) 23:43, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Changes to “original” names have happened continue to happen. Ayers Rock has been rebranded to Uluuru on Wikipedia.

The change is absolutely real vent to Wikipedi. 217.72.125.96 (talk) 15:57, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Uluru was proven to be the new common name on that article talk, it hasn't been proven for Snowdon/Yr Wyddfa yet. We don't give priority of "original names", or should we call Germany, Deutschland? We use the most-common, which in absence of a recent discussion, remains the long-accepted common name of Snowdon. If you wish to contest, please raise an RM providing evidence of Snowdon no longer being used by a majority of independent secondary sources, and are using Yr Wyddfa instead. DankJae 16:17, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Deeply disagree with this line of logic. Should we not then change Mont Blanc on Wikipedia to be called 'White Mountain' as it'd translate to in English? Of course not. I believe the article should be updated to reflect the changing of status quo in now the mountain and mountain range being known as Yr Wyddfa and Eryri respectively. Darlectro (talk) 08:43, 11 May 2026 (UTC)

The Wyddfa

There's obviously some debate about Yr Wyddfa v Snowdon as the common English name but I've also noticed The Wyddfa being an increasingly common, but long attested English language name for the mountain.

There's some attestation in the 19th century as a name used by early tourists (it's also the name used by George Borrow in Wild Wales - he asserts (incorrectly) that Snowdon refers to Eryri rather than Yr Wyddfa). But it's also a form used commonly today (examples) especially by Welsh speakers speaking English often interchangably with "yr Wyddfa".

It seems sufficiently common to call out as an alternative to both Snowdon and Yr Wyddfa - certainly in the Toponomy section - and maybe in the top line ("Snowdon or Yr Wyddfa also known as The Wyddfa). Morwennol (talk) 15:10, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

Would be weakly open for it added to toponomy as an alternative (shortened) name, if there is a source on the name itself, those are just a mere few using what could be merely a nickname (a bit WP:SYNTH). Although note all those sources de-capitalise "the" in sentence case, implying "the" is not part of the name, instead it being the "Wyddfa". Don't see it as widespread enough for the lead, and as a derivative and shortening of "Yr Wyddfa", unless it is common enough to drop the "Yr" in the future, the full form is all that is needed in the lead, as well as being the now official English name. We should focus on current use, and older sources can have typos and errors. DankJae 19:41, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

References

Advocating for article name and prominence of Snowdon over Yr Wyddfa throughout to be adjusted according to reality

Re-opening this debate as I feel these changes are long past due. Darlectro (talk) 08:47, 11 May 2026 (UTC)

It's not about the time, it is about usage. You'll need to demonstrate that sources are now commonly referring to the mountain by this name in English language writing. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 09:08, 11 May 2026 (UTC)

How can that reasonably be proven though? I can point to numerous social media posts and comments in exclusively English speaking communities if need be, as well as the proliferated usage of Yr Wyddfa in articles and the like, but beyond that? I obviously don't have and don't believe there to be wide, publicly available research on the usage of Welsh names as opposed to the anglicised alternative. Darlectro (talk) 10:08, 11 May 2026 (UTC)

Academic sources, other books, and news reporting are usually an acceptable starting point to prove the use of one name over another. Social media posts aren't, in general, as they're not considered as authoritative. A.D.Hope (talk) 11:41, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

The BBC now strongly preferences Yr Wyddfa over Snowdon in recent articles, using it in the headline and throughout: . — Preceding unsigned comment added by ~2026-31971-54 (talk) 11:07, 29 May 2026 (UTC)

Can't see any case for moving it, considering English usage overwhelmingly prefers "Snowdon" to this day AlbusWulfricDumbledore (talk) 19:23, 14 June 2026 (UTC)

Absolutely agree with this. If you visit the official website for Eryri National Park, Snowdon nor Snowdonia isn't mentioned even when choosing to view the website in English. The names in this article should be changed. Diolch. Manondafydd (talk) 09:08, 3 August 2026 (UTC)

Whatever the park authority is hoping for people to call it, what matters on Wikipedia is what the majority of people actually call it. The BBC are being nice and calling it what the park people want it to be called, and that's up to them. And perhaps one day the wider British public will start using the Welsh names in preference. But right now, in English, the picture is very much that people call it Snowdon and the park Snowdonia. See, for example, a comparison of the British English usage of the terms on Google Ngrams. There's been very little movement on that recently (albeit data from 2023–2026 are not yet available). There was actually a slight resurgence of Snowdonia over Eryri from 2012–2022.

So this is very much not political: Wikipedia seeks to report reality in the words people use to describe it in the language that is used to write the page. Because there is significant minority use of the Welsh term, it is also there in the first line of the article, as it should be. But the English-language page for Munich is never going to be retitled as München – even if the Germans complain really loudly – because that's just not what people call it in English. NoRelation (talk) 13:15, 6 August 2026 (UTC)

Yr Wyddfa and Eryri are the official names regardless of language, and Wikipedia should reflect that. Wikipedia is there to share factual information and to educate people. It is also about respect for our language and culture. Manondafydd (talk) 08:00, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

I refer you to my previous comment. The fact is that in English, the majority of people still call it Snowdon, and Wikipedia must reflect that fact. NoRelation (talk) 18:36, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

As a Cymraeg-speaking individual from the Eryri area, I believe local people speaking the local language should have the say on what the mountain and mountain range are named to the rest of the world, don't you? In the exact way that we should be calling Uluru, Uluru, as that is its name locally. This attitude is yet another example of how Cymraeg and the Welsh people are disregarded and ignored. Manondafydd (talk) 10:01, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

You don't seem to be paying any attention to the actual reasons that articles are called what they are called (Edit: have a look at the Wikipedia:Official names page, which explains this clearly.). If you want to change those, then that's a matter of policy, and it's a different and much bigger argument. Just as the Gulf of Mexico article rightly keeps its name in spite of declarations, official or otherwise, so will this one.

In any case, with Uluru, you've just given a perfect example of why the page should continue to be called Snowdon. Unlike Snowdon, Uluru is so named on English Wikipedia because the local name has also become the main name used in English, as demonstrated, for example, by Google Ngrams. It can be seen that the crossover to dominance happened in about 1994. If and when that happens for Snowdon – which, as noted and linked above, has not happened and does not appear to be likely to happen particularly soon – the name of the article will rightly be changed.

If you would like to vent your anger regarding the Welsh language or Welsh people being ignored – something that I, personally, have no opinion on – you need to direct it elsewhere and more broadly with a view to getting the Welsh name used more widely. This, and only this, may ultimately lead to the page name being changed. But seeking to change the public's use of language is not and never will be the job of Wikipedia. NoRelation (talk) 10:35, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

With all due respect I think the rules should be bent sometimes. Of course the English usage is more common as English is a majority language, whereas Cymraeg is not. Yr Wyddfa will never be the most commonly used name if people outside the Cymraeg speaking community don't know about it or understand the prevalence of using it. If you Google Yr Wyddfa or Eryri, every major website or article that comes up (except this one) either has the name Yr Wyddfa or Yr Wyddfa (Snowdon) or Eryri (Snowdonia) as the title. I think the Wikipedia pages should follow suit. Nos da. Manondafydd (talk) 20:21, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

If you Google Yr Wyddfa or Eryri, every major website or article that comes up (except this one) either has the name Yr Wyddfa or Yr Wyddfa (Snowdon) or Eryri (Snowdonia) as the title. That's how Google works. What would you expect it to come up with? Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 12:06, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

My bad - what I meant to write was even if you Google Snowdon or Snowdonia, most articles that come up either have the Welsh name only or the Welsh name with the English name in brackets afterwards. All of which are English language articles. Manondafydd (talk) 21:15, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

Not when I google it. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 18:15, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

The BBC now seem to use Yr Wyddfa (mentioning once in the article that it's also known as Snowdon). They seem to favour Yr Wyddfa in headlines.

ITV favour Yr Wyddfa in headlines and Yr Wyddfa in article text, stating its also known as Snowdon once.

The guardian is inconsistent, sometimes using Yr Wyddfa (also known as Snowdon), sometimes using Yr Wyddfa (Snowdon) and sometimes using just Snowdon. News articles seem to favour Eryri/Yr Wyddfa in headlines, while lifestyle articles use Snowdon(ia).

The daily mail is also inconsistent - we've got Yr Wyddfa (also known as Mount Snowdon), Snowdon (also known as Yr Wyddfa) and Snowdon (Yr Wyddfa) as well as yr wyddfa on its own.

The Telegraph have Yr Wyddfa (Mount Snowdon), Yr Wyddfa (Snowdon), Snowdon (also known as Yr Wyddfa), Yr Wyddfa/Snowdon, Yr Wyddfa (also known as Snowdon), Yr Wyddfa (formerly Snowdon). and Yr Wyddfa on its own. Snowdon is used in headlines.

The Times has Yr Wyddfa, or Snowdon, Snowdon, or Yr Wyddfa and they seem to consistently favour Snowdon in headlines.

Specifically Welsh sources increasingly use exclusively the Welsh names - Wales Online favours Yr Wyddfa in headlines and does not include Snowdon in the article body, and the Daily Post is similar while nation.cymru never include Snowdon.

We're clearly in a period of transition, where Welsh sources (including the English language Welsh services of BBC and ITV) strongly prefer Yr Wyddfa.

Outside of news agencies, North Wales Police use Yr Wyddfa only, as do the Football Association of Wales and the WRU. The Welsh names predominate on the website of the Welsh Tourist Board visitwales.com. And obviously the national park authority use the welsh names exclusively. The Snowdon Mountain Railway - despite retaining Snowdon in their name, also use the Welsh names prominently on their website and social media.

So it seems like we're in a period of transition where the Welsh names are the common names within Wales, while there is roughly equal prominence of the Welsh and English names in British sources (with some confusion as to whether Snowdon is a current or outdated name). Certainly, regardless of political leaning, nearly every British media source considers it appropriate to give both names. Morwennol (talk) 10:30, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

Google will allow you to cherry pick whatever terms you want. Below are random results for 'Mount Snowdon'. All this reflects is the terminology used in various newspaper style guides. I have not seen anything to suggest that Snowdon has been replaced in common parlance. If anything, letters to newspapers seem to suggest that real people (as opposed to style guides) are still commonly using Snowdon and Snowdon alone. And then some newspapers are converting the popular term 'Snowdon' into 'Yr Wyddfa' in the body to match their style guide and then having to explain it. The Guardian article below, for instance:

"Name: The Snowdon queue.

Age: A decade and a half, give or take.

Appearance: Frustratingly long.

This isn’t new. You’re right. The press has been reporting on the queue to reach the summit of Yr Wyddfa in north Wales (known in English as Snowdon) since 2013."

The Guardian

'The great Snowdon queue-skipping row – is it really OK to jump the line if you’re not taking a selfie?'

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2026/aug/26/the-great-snowdon-queue-skipping-row-is-it-really-ok-to-jump-the-line-if-youre-not-taking-a-selfie

North Wales Live and Wales Online:

‘I climbed the Snowdon path with all the views and no tourists’

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/whats-on/i-climbed-snowdon-path-views-34508871

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/whats-on/i-climbed-snowdon-one-thing-34507350

The Times

'Self-policing is best way to cope with peak demand on Snowdon'

https://www.thetimes.com/comment/the-times-view/article/self-policing-snowdon-peak-demand-hiking-wales-zkkh86mp6

The Telegraph

'Anger hits peak as Snowdon hikers refuse to queue'

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2026/08/24/anger-snowdon-hikers-refuse-queue-wales/

And so on. Dgp4004 (talk) 11:44, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

In fact, the Wales Online article published a few days ago even states explicitly that Snowdon is the more popular term:

"After a year of hiking, I finally took on the tallest mountain in Wales, known in Welsh as Yr Wyddfa, but more commonly as Mount Snowdon, and found that we may have chosen the best route up."

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/whats-on/i-climbed-snowdon-one-thing-34507350

In any case, it is clear that there is not a consensus for change here at this time. Dgp4004 (talk) 12:00, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

I did a search for Snowdon then Yr Wyddfa on each newspaper's website in the past year and presented a curated, but hopefully balanced picture giving the range of usages.

The first article you cite I saw in both Wales Online and the Daily Post, but excluded it as it seems to be a syndicated opinion piece written by a UK wide media organisation so didn't seem to reflect the editorial policy of those websites (or a Welsh-media specific perspective).

The Guardian, Times and Telegraph pieces you cite also mention Yr Wyddfa prominently (but favour Snowdon). That's consistent with what I claimed that the Guardian favour Snowdon for lifestyle pieces and Yr Wyddfa for news (Pass Notes is more lifestyle than news imo), and the Times and Telegraph both use Snowdon in headlines. Morwennol (talk) 12:07, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

I meant to say that Wales Online and the Daily Post sometimes do not include Snowdon in article bodies in my previous post btw, not that they always exclude it. Morwennol (talk) 12:10, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

As you say, we seem to be in a period of transition. The recent and related move request at Brecon Beacons National Park came to a similar conclusion, and did not result in a move.

You could open a formal move request here to see what the lie of the land is, but that might just be a duplication of this discussion. A.D.Hope (talk) 15:34, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

Toponymy: Yr Wyddfa in 1198

I've just removed the following, added by Morwennol from the 'Toponymy' section as it could be original research:

The Welsh name of the mountain, Yr Wyddfa, is was recorded in Latin as Capud Wedduavaur in charter issued to Aberconwy Abbey by Llywelyn ab Iorwerth in 1198.

The source is page 168 of the 1835 History and Antiquities of the Town of Aberconwy. The charter clearly exists, my concern is that it is a primary source and the History does not appear to contain any explanatory text identifying Capud Wedduavaur as Yr Wyddfa. Based on the context it could be, but we should avoid novel interpretations of primary sources.

If anyone knows of a secondary source which does make the connection, or if I've missed one in the History, please let us know so we can update the article. A.D.Hope (talk) 11:36, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

I'm really not sure that the previous wording should have been removed simply because it "could" be original research. The 1198 charter is mentioned by several writers, such as in "A History of Wales from the Earliest Times to the Edwardian Conquest" (Lloyd, 1911) and "The Mountains of Snowdonia in History" (Carr & Lister, 1948). In defining the boundaries of the land, it states that it included the Nantgwynant vale from Penygwryd to Beddgelert, and that on the Snowdon side of that vale it ran from ‘Bwlch Cwm Llein’ (Cwm Llan) to the head of ‘Wedduavaur’ (Wyddfa Fawr), then via Crib Goch to Pen-y-pass. "Wedduavaur" is not only similar sounding to "Wyddfa Fawr", but from the geographical description it could be nothing else. Hogyn Lleol (talk) 12:27, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

There's no dispute that the charter exists. The problem is that no reliable secondary source has been provided that links Wedduavaur and Yr Wyddfa. If either of the books you mention make the connection then the claim can be reinstated with the appropriate citation. A.D.Hope (talk) 12:31, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

The original Latin as quoted in the 1835 "History and Antiquities of the Town of Aberconwy" states: "Ascendendo de Abercolwyn prout descendit in ferlas per medium Colwyn usque blaencolwyn prout descendit de bwlch chwmllem. Hinc per crepidinem rupium usque ad caput Wedduavaur. Hinc usque ad capud Grybgoch. Hinc usque ad capud Wregyssant. Hinc per altitudinem rupium usque ad sedem peris."

We're going to struggle to find a source that directly links Wedduavaur and Yr Wyddfa simply because one name is Latin, the other is Welsh (Wedduavaur being the Anglo-Norman/Latin scribe's attempt to spell the Welsh Wyddfa Fawr phonetically). However, if you know the massif and follow the boundaries as described above (and translated in my previous post), then the boundary could not fail to pass the summit of Yr Wyddfa.

A primary academic source supporting the fact that that "caput Wedduavaur" refers to the summit of Yr Wyddfa is the seminal paper by Colin A. Gresham:

Gresham, Colin A., "The Aberconwy Charter," Archaeologia Cambrensis, Vol. 94 (1939), pp. 123–162 (specifically pages 150 and 153).

Other supporting references are:

Ellis, T. P. (1926), The First Charter of Aberconwy, Arch. Camb.

and

Hays, Rhys W. (1963), The History of the Abbey of Aberconway, 1186–1537, University of Wales Press. (This confirms the topographical identification of the monastic bounds in Eryri.)

Hogyn Lleol (talk) 13:15, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

Wedduavaur is simply wyddfa fawr in middle welsh orthorgraphy. u and v were commonly used to represent what in modern welsh is spelled with an f (pwyll pendeuic dyuet e.e.) . I'm not convinced a secondary source is needed to state what is blindingly obvious from a surface reading of the primary source.

However, the current text of the article does seem to already provide a secondary source which explicitly links _Wedduavaur_ with _Yr Wyddfa_ (i don't have access to that source unfortunately to verify) and makes the false and easily disprovable claim that it was first recorded in Latin in 1284 because we literally have a document reliably dated to 1198 which records _Wedduavaur_ in latin.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=8vGxEAAAQBAJ&redir_esc=y

The combination of primary and secondary sources ought to be enough to substantiate an 1198 claim without it being original research

~~ Morwennol (talk) 13:30, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

When it comes to primary sources, the most we can do is make 'descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge.' We cannot 'analyze, evaluate, interpret, or synthesize material found in a primary source.' This means we can't conflate Wedduavaur and Yr Wyddfa based solely on the 1198 charter.

I can't access to relevant page of the Dictionary of the Place-Names of Wales either, but from memory it does explicitly cite the first recorded use of Weddua vaur as being from 1284. This means it can't be used to support the date 1198; doing so would be improper synthesis of the material. A.D.Hope (talk) 13:54, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

being able to convert between middle welsh and modern Welsh orthography isn't specialist knowledge.

You're being obtuse in order to support a transparently false statement appearing in this article. Morwennol (talk) 14:20, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

If there isn't a secondary source that links Wedduavaur and Yr Wyddfa then we can't include the claim. We can't use the charter itself because this would be interpreting a primary source in a way that is incompatible with Wikipedia's original research policy.

Looking at Gresham, we might be able to take the two passages on pages 153 and 156 together to support the identification of Wedua Vaur (as he spells it) with Yr Wyddfa. The former states that Wedua Vaur gives the modern form Wyddfa Fawr, and the latter states that Wyddfa Fawr is Snowdon. This could be considered synthesis, however.

I'm afraid I can't access the other two sources, so I'm reliant on you there. A.D.Hope (talk) A.D.Hope (talk) 13:36, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

wikipedia's primary sourcing policy states

"in the form of straightforward descriptive statements that any educated person—with access to the source but without specialist knowledge—will be able to verify are directly supported by the source"

The text you restored still makes the claim but also includes disprovable information (that Wedduavaur was first written in Latin in 1284 and means Wyddfa Fawr).

If we're happy that that is reliably sourced and not OR, the 1198 claim doesn't need to link Wedduavaur with Yr Wyddfa (although tbh it's glaringly obvious to anyone who can read Welsh it's just Wyddfa Fawr in middle Welsh orthography) - it just needs to be an earlier reliably dated attestation - which it is.

If we're not happy with the sourcing of the 1284 claim then that should also be deleted since it also relies on Wedduavaur being Wyddfa fawr. Either way, there's no basis for the text you reinserted. Morwennol (talk) 14:08, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

The text I've restored makes the claim that the first record of Wedua vaur dates to 1284. This is supported by the Dictionary.

The Dictionary does not support the 1198 date, only the 1284 date. We cannot synthesise secondary sources to imply a conclusion not explicitly stated in those sources.

The connection between Wedua vaur and Yr Wyddfa needs to be clear to 'any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialised knowledge'. I don't think this is the case, as the average educated person can't be expected to understand Latinised Middle Welsh and its relationship with modern Welsh toponymy. A.D.Hope (talk) 14:22, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

Your view of "the average educated person" is conveys a lot of your own biases. There are two Welsh speakers here who tell you Wedduavaur and Wyddfa Fawr are obviously the same thing. Morwennol (talk) 14:24, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

This is the English language Wikipedia. We can't assume the average reader is familiar with Middle Welsh. A.D.Hope (talk) 14:27, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

Hope you don't ever confuse what you're doing with improving wikipedia rather than the inane pedantry and rules lawyering it actually is.

Do you genuinely believe the article is more accurate now than it was before? Morwennol (talk) 14:44, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

If you're going to make this personal I'll stop engaging.

The issue here is simple. We need a secondary source to support the 1198 date. If we were having a chat in the pub I'd say 'sure, what you're saying seems reasonable and I agree', but that's not enough for Wikipedia.

The 1284 claim can be removed, I've no objection to that. I just reverted to the previous version of the passage. A.D.Hope (talk) 14:47, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, we have the following:

- a primary source which describes nearby toponomy of the Yr Wyddfa massif using wedduavaur

- Gresham, who explicitly links capud wedua vaur (in the charter) with Yr Wyddfa Fawr and concludes that that is Snowdon

I'm going to restore the previous text and cite gresham rather than the primary source and use his spelling. Morwennol (talk) 11:44, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

Please undo that edit. Gresham does not explicitly link the two, and we have not gained a consensus on whether an indirect attribution is acceptable. A.D.Hope (talk) 17:54, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

I've now posted a notice of this discussion to the talk pages of the WikiProjects to which this article of interest. Hopefully this will encourage a wider set of contributions and allow a firm consensus to form over how to handle the sourcing of the 1198 date. A.D.Hope (talk) 18:03, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

I'm finding it really hard to understand your position here. Gresham states very clearly that capud wedua vaur correlates the modern form Pen yr Wyddfa Fawr (p 153).

What is the uncertainty here? Your point yesterday was that there was no source linking the middle welsh spelling to the modern welsh, but Gresham explicitly does that.

Are you now saying Wyddfa Fawr might be something other than Yr Wyddfa? As I'm sure you're aware that yr wyddfa fawr is a name commonly used in modern welsh (and indeed is a form used elsewhere by Gresham) ("dewch ar y tren bach i ben yr wyddfa fawr" as hogia llandegai sang) Morwennol (talk) 19:47, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

I've explained why using Gresham as a secondary source could be considered synthesis above. I do not agree that he states 'very clearly' or 'explicitly' that Wedua Vaur is Yr Wyddfa/Snowdon; this must be inferred from passages several pages apart.

My position is that we need a secondary source that clearly states that the Wedua Vaur mentioned in the 1198 charter is Yr Wyddfa. Failing this, we need a consensus that using Gresham to support the 1198 claim is not WP:SYNTH. A.D.Hope (talk) 19:56, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

"capud wedua faur giving the modern form Wyddfa Fawr. Professor Ifor Williams points out this name is mutated the latin word capud must be a translation of the welsh pen y"

where exactly is the room for ambiguity here? Morwennol (talk) 20:06, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

Wyddfa Fawr isn't obviously the same name as Yr Wyddfa. The link between the two is only made a few pages later and not directly in relation to Wedua Vaur. A.D.Hope (talk) 20:15, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

Y mae dim ond un Wyddfa... ~2026-47340-53 (talk) 07:45, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

As people interested enough in Welsh geography to edit an article about it we are presumably better-informed than average, so what seems obvious to us may not be to the general reader. A.D.Hope (talk) 16:52, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

There has been a lot of argument here, bizarrely without anyone consulting Pryce's Acts of Welsh Rulers. The charter is no. 218 in his edition, and his calendar translates the relevant part of the charter as "hence by the ridge of the rocks to the top of Wyddfa Fawr [Snowdon], hence to the top of Crib Goch." (p. 350). The original Latin, printed on p. 354, is "hinc per crepidinem rupium usque ad capud Wedua Vaur, hinc usque ad capud Grybgoch". ~2026-47340-53 (talk) 07:38, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

Now, Pryce rejects it as being authentic, but dates it not to 1284 but crucially to c. 1283, before the monastery was moved to Maenan (pp. 359-360). However, he does say it was synthesised from earlier documents which laid out the extensive territories of the monastery, and may have been an elaboration on an earlier charter by Llywelyn. ~2026-47340-53 (talk) 07:43, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

Diolch that's incredibly helpful. I think that's a strong secondary source for reinstating the 1284 claim - I cant' see the source but presumably it's the Edwardian Charter?

The 1198 claim exists elsewhere online (I found it on Michael Freeman's database of early welsh tourism primary sources - citing Gresham) - so it's certainly worth including it and discussing academic debate around that document rather than just ignoring it.

https://sublimewales.wordpress.com/attractions/snowdon/snowdon-the-nature-of-the-evidence/snowdon-place-names/ Morwennol (talk) 08:46, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

I think we could get away with something along the lines of:

An early source for the name Yr Wyddfa is a Latin charter belonging to Aberconwy Abbey, which lists caput Wedua Vaur as one of the boundaries of the abbey's lands. The charter is dated 1198, however this date has been disputed by Colin Gresham, who dates it to the early thirteenth century, and Charles Insley and William Pryce, who date it to the period immediately following the conquest of Gwynedd by Edward I in 1282-3.

I'm not quite sure how to reconcile Owen with this, as he doesn't give a source for 1284. It may be that he used the Edwardian charter. A.D.Hope (talk) 17:42, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

Tried to find a copy of the Edwardian Charter, and found a reference in the Calendar of Charter Rolls volume 2 (p279) to the Edwardian 1284 Charter that refers to the move to Maenan and references Monasticon Anglicanum Volume 5 p679.

https://archive.org/details/calendarofcharte02lond/page/278/mode/2up

But unless I'm very much mistaken, looking that up, it seems to just be the Llywelyn Charter again...

https://archive.org/details/b30455832_0005/page/672/mode/2up?q=aberconwy Morwennol (talk) 18:43, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

I have found it difficult to find a copy of the Edwardian charter. It would be handy to have, but perhaps not essential given the Aberconwy charter pre-dates it.

I've just edited the Toponymy section broadly in line with the wording I suggested above, while trying to incorporate the existing wording. I hope this represents the current consensus and can be supported by the sources, which is why I've made the edit, but I'm happy to undo it and continue the discussion if there is disagreement. A.D.Hope (talk) 17:03, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

The issue is pre Pryce the only extant copy of the Aberconwy charter is a copy dated to 1332. I think it's probably worth including that. Maybe this is too wordy?

The Welsh name of the mountain, Yr Wyddfa (or occasionally Yr Wyddfa Fawr), is first recorded in Latin as Weddua vaur in 1284<owen>.

Another early source for the name is a Latin charter supposedly issued to Aberconwy Abbey by Llywelyn ap Iorwerth, which lists caput Wedua Vaur as one of the boundaries of the abbey's lands.

The charter - which survives in a 1332 manuscript<pryce> - is dated to 1198 but Llywelyn was not in a position to issue such a charter until the early thirteenth century<gresham>; and Charles Insley and William Pryce conclude that it is a forgery dating from the period immediately following the conquest of Gwynedd by Edward I in 1282-3. Morwennol (talk) 08:57, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

I do think we're in danger of getting into the weeds. Ultimately, what the reader needs to know in the Toponymy section is that there's a medieval charter that is an early use of Yr Wyddfa. The exact academic position is of lesser importance, and might be better suited to an endnote. A.D.Hope (talk) 09:07, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

or maybe Aberconwy Abbey Morwennol (talk) 13:49, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

Good shout. The forgery info is probably more relevant to the abbey's response to the conquest than it is to the name of Yr Wyddfa. A.D.Hope (talk) 13:58, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

Huw Pryce's book is on archive.org here, it is all you need as it is the standard reference on the subject today. No need to cite Victorian editions. Tipcake (talk) 13:05, 7 September 2026 (UTC)

Pryce is one of the two sources for paragraph two of 'Toponymy', which is the one that mentions the charter. A.D.Hope (talk) 15:35, 7 September 2026 (UTC)

Who is William Pryce? Huw Pryce is the authority here. And 'dated 1198' is implicitly claiming some kind of authority confirming it. 'The charter claims to be one issued by Llywelyn ab Iorwerth in 1198, but…' is better phrased. Tipcake (talk) 13:03, 7 September 2026 (UTC)

I'll correct the naming error now. I don't agree with the proposed phrasing, as the charter is dated 1198 and the rest of the sentence makes clear the academic doubts about this. A.D.Hope (talk) 15:36, 7 September 2026 (UTC)