Talk:Sandra Jayat

Death

@Tony 1212: FYI, we changed today on french WP the birth date for 1930, as it is supported by the Who's Who and others facts (birth name = Lucienne Jayat confirmed by an official document). It looks like Sandra Jayat died on february this year. Yours. Pa2chant.bis (talk) 19:20, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

Thanks very much Pa2chant.bis, indeed her death around now would not be unexpected. However I am not sure that the site referenced for her death notice at https://www.deces-en-france.fr/resultats/28373655-jayat-lucienne, or another https://www.libramemoria.com/defunts/jayat-lucienne/0f1c9ac6e6c94841abf8f00d0b440099 , count as reliable published sources for English Wikipedia (which has different policies from French Wikipedia), since their official status is unclear; a formally published obituary would of course be much better. I wonder if we will see one in the official French press before too long? Also this might formally support the designation of her birth name as Lucienne... I am happy to wait a couple of months for a better source, surely one must appear?? Best regards from Australia! Tony 1212 (talk) 19:55, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

The Deaths in France (English translation) site does give 1930 as her year of birth. However this does then not agree with the story of her running away to Paris at age 15, arriving in 1955. Do you think that the official notice could be wrong by 10 years, or how is the remainder of the story possible? Regards Tony Tony 1212 (talk) 00:11, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

By comparing the different sources, I came to the conclusion that her birth in Italy was fictionalized by herself, and that she was then unable to reestablish the truth. One source specifies that two other biographies of hers had her life beginning in France, in Moulins . Another source shows the same mechanism when she was taken in by a woman who took her for her deported daughter, and that she was only able to escape the illusion by fleeing without explanation. She has also been presented by French television as "Django Reinhart's daughter" (without specifying that she would only be his spiritual daughter), she neither denied nor confirmed it (when asked "You are DR's daughter", she simply replied "Django, he's so big for us (Les Manouches], he's more than a brother]". . It seems that she has broken with her relatives since at least 2014 or even 2011 (comment on https://filsduvent.kazeo.com/jayat-sandra-a121151322)

All this can be described as superb Original Research, but I'm afraid that this is the only explanation, which does not detract from her qualities as a painter and writer. I will try to have articles in newspapers, but I'm not sure anyone will accept.

The challenge for both the French and English articles is to convey this by erasing the current discrepancies without doing OR, simply by explaining that these inconsistencies exist.

Thank you very much @Tony 1212: for these reactions to a subject that is difficult to address while strictly respecting the rules! And I'm glad to know that an Australian is interested in this French woman (whom I didn't know until last week).--Pa2chant.bis (talk) 12:44, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

NB : I am not sure this is correct, because of the new inconstitency it introduces between the source and the text. I have exactly the same problem to manage on fr:WP (and of course I am not @Adelberta:) but my englishis not good enough to discuss more about WP rules. Cheers.--Pa2chant.bis (talk) 13:17, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

Well in view of this "interesting" situation, I have raised it on a thread about Sandra, originally established in 2014 on the "Djangobooks" forum where discussion of all things Django related takes place - see here: https://www.djangobooks.com/forum/discussion/comment/121116/#Comment_121116 . Among separate evidence there are her photographs including (as cited) the 1967 one on the cover of her EP, now added (yesterday) to the infobox on the English Wikipedia article (this one) since this is permissible for a deceased subject. The only comment thus far (though hopefully there may be more) is that the photo in question does appear to fit a younger age (e.g. b. 1938-9) than an older one. My personal feeling is that rather than fictionalising a later birth date, it is the older one that is incorrect for some reason, but we shall see... it is of course possible that an older (different) Lucienne Jayat was born in 1940 and the 2 individuals have become conflated, but if that date is given in French Who's Who, one would indeed expect the record to have been corrected if that were the case... Tony 1212 (talk) 18:22, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

By the way I would not attach too much weight to her introduction (in the 1972 French TV interview) as "Django Reinhardt's daughter" ... my reading is that she was to a degree "adopted" by the Reinhardt family and by Naguine (Django's widow) especially, as a sort of surrogate daughter (otherwise she only had a son, Babik), so the appellation would not have been entirely incorrect; also note that Sandra neither formally confirms nor denies this designation in her replies. Tony 1212 (talk) 19:08, 26 April 2025 (UTC)