Talk:Raga Aberi

Request to Maintain Neutral Tone, Relevant and Verifiable Content on Album Article

Hi everyone,

Just a quick note to request that we please maintain a neutral tone, ensure relevance and stick closely to the album's official information and credits when editing this article. Some recent additions — such as identifying personal relationships not stated in the album or supported by reliable sources — may unintentionally introduce original research or subjective framing.

Per Wikipedia’s core content policies (WP:NPOV, WP:V, WP:OR, and especially WP:BLP) — edits must be fact-based, verifiable, and neutral in tone, especially when referring to living persons or their relationships.

I suggest we base the article content strictly on what's publicly credited or published in reliable secondary sources. I appreciate everyone’s contributions and look forward to keeping the article accurate and neutral.

Thanks! WP_KuruV Chsh1988 (talk) 15:48, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

The Edmonton Journal contradicts your claim, as do other reliable sources--as noted in my edit summary. Please give your reasoning for disputing the reliable sources. Thank you. Caro7200 (talk) 16:23, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

A.R. Rahman The Musical Storm confirms the information . Again, please do a before and please do not ignore reliable sources without providing your reasoning. Thanks. Caro7200 (talk) 16:28, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

Hi, I kindly ask that we remain respectful when editing articles about living individuals, especially regarding personal relationships. The appropriate way to refer to Caroline in this article is as a "British composer, vocalist, and keyboardist," to stay relevant to the album and its musical context.

The sources you’ve cited don’t appear directly relevant to the Raga Aberi album and seem to be an attempt to piece together information from unrelated contexts. I appreciate your contributions, but please keep in mind that these are living persons, and unless explicitly confirmed in reliable sources directly related to the album, assumptions about their relationship status should be avoided.

As fellow Wikipedia contributors, let’s aim to maintain professionalism, neutrality, and avoid edit warring. Thank you. WP_KuruV Chsh1988 (talk) 16:40, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

Sorry, not the case at all. It's time to involve an administrator. Cheers. Caro7200 (talk) 16:53, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

Please keep the Raga Aberi article strictly musical and relevant to the album’s content and official credits. The source you stated is irrelevant to Raga Aberi album and should not be used to infer personal relationships or make claims that are irrelevant to the music. This is called synthesis — a violation of Wikipedia policy.

Wikipedia Policy: Verifiability and Relevance

1. All content must be verifiable with reliable sources – not original synthesis or piecing together information from unrelated places.
2. No original research (NOR) – Wikipedia editors cannot combine facts from different sources to imply something not explicitly stated.
3. Biographies of Living Persons (BLP) – extremely strict: relationship details must be directly supported by high-quality sources and relevant to the topic at hand.

Appreciate if the administrator can verify. WP_KuruV Chsh1988 (talk) 17:17, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

Admin here. Yes, we must follow things like WP:V and WP:NOR. But you are not applying those ideas correctly. There's nothing wrong with Caro7200's sources in this case. We don't require confirmation straight from Shankar or anything like that on Wikipedia.

Lets advance the discussion to other points. Is there any particular reason for discrepancy between the official credits and what third party sources like Caro is providing are saying? Is it possible they're both correct concurrently? There are times in the music world where musicians perform on albums, but are not officially credited, for example. Or maybe there's further context to explore too.

I'm not familiar with this album, so I don't know. There may be reasons to omit it from the article, but violations of V/NOR/BLP would not be the reason here, that's incorrect application of those concepts.

Also, please make sure we stay away from edit warring, or you risk getting locked out of editing the article too. Sergecross73 msg me 20:27, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

Thank you for the clarification, admin — much appreciated. Please consider the following points for context:

The issue is that User:Caro7200 added the phrase "his wife, Caroline played the tamboura." I did not remove her as a performer — I simply edited it to say "Caroline played the tamboura," and later it got added in againd. I then removed the line and placed it under the Credits section, which aligns with the album’s official information.

I believe it’s more appropriate to refer to her either by name ("Caroline") or as "a British composer, vocalist, and keyboardist," which is consistent with other Wikipedia articles and keeps the focus on her musical contribution.

Since both Caroline and L. Shankar are living individuals, and there is no reliable or current source confirming their relationship status now, we should avoid calling her "his wife." In fact, they are no longer seen, mentioned, or performing together publicly, and it’s possible they may have separate spouses now — but we cannot assume. In the source, its mentioned 'his then wife'. User:Caro7200 appears intent on framing the relationship in a specific way, despite its lack of relevance to the album. This persistent focus raises concerns of possible bias, which I hope can be avoided so we can maintain a neutral and respectful tone throughout the article.

Per WP:UNDUE, we should avoid giving undue weight to peripheral details — especially when they shift focus from the album’s musical content to the artist’s personal life. Similarly, according to Wikipedia:WikiProject Albums, the emphasis in album articles should be on credits, musical roles, and production, rather than personal relationships. Even using a phrase like "his wife at the time" introduces unnecessary biographical detail that could make the article speculative or distract from its core focus. For clarity, neutrality, and relevance, I suggest we keep it simple and clean by either using her name or referring to her professionally as a British composer, vocalist, and keyboardist — as appropriate for the context of the album.

Thank you again for your time. WP_KuruV Chsh1988 (talk) 02:21, 3 July 2025 (UTC)

Here is an example from a different wiki article:

The Epidemics - it reads - "The Epidemics is an album by Indian violinist L. Shankar and British vocalist, keyboardist and composer Caroline recorded in February 1985 and released on ECM the following year." WP_KuruV Chsh1988 (talk) 02:25, 3 July 2025 (UTC)

I have added two additional sources that state that Caroline was his wife. If you think these three reliable sources are wrong, you must address that issue--why are they wrong and what is your proof? Additionally, if you have some kind of relationship of any nature with Shankar or Caroline, please disclose it on your user page. Thank you. Caro7200 (talk) 10:25, 3 July 2025 (UTC)

I'm still a bit puzzled. A lot of my prior comments still stand even if the point of contention isn't music credits, but whether or not musicians were married. Is there some sort of reason to believe all of Caro sources are getting this wrong? Are there sources that actively state they aren't married? Is there a reason for confusion on this point? And why is it so important for it to be omitted? It's not framed in a way that discredits her contributions or the album itself. Sergecross73 msg me 15:55, 3 July 2025 (UTC)

I’ll keep it simple.

The issue is: Should the sentence be stated as

1. Shankar's wife, Caroline, played the tamboura drone.

Or  should we say

1. British vocalist, keyboardist and composer Caroline played the tamboura.
2. Caroline (from The Epidemics) played the tamboura.

My reason is:

1. Many reputable publications that talks about Shankar/The Epidemics refer to her professionally, not as ‘his wife’ - which is why we should too as it is an album article.
2. In The Epidemics article on Wiki - Caroline is referred as ‘British vocalist, keyboardist and composer Caroline’
3. The source cited by Caro says Shankar’s ‘then wife Caroline’ - implying that they are no longer together
4. In order to keep the improve the language on the article, I suggest that we use either ‘British vocalist, keyboardist and composer Caroline played the tamboura’ or ‘Caroline (from The Epidemics) played the tamboura.’

Guys this is not really an issue, I’m not sure why user: Caro7200 is being possessive about the article and not allowing other editors to improve the language of the article.

And lastly, NO, I don’t know any of them, I’m just trying to improve Wiki articles.

Hope this clarifies. WP_KuruV Chsh1988 (talk) 10:05, 4 July 2025 (UTC)

This will be my last comment, and then it can be excised, I guess, but it seems like another case of Wikipedia:I just don't like it. Like Serge, I'm still confused about why you care so much. The information was included because that's what the reliable source, the Edmonton Journal, stated: that Shankar's wife, Caroline, played the tamboura drone. AllMusic, a reliable source, also stated that they were married. The other reliable source, a book published by Viking/Penguin, also noted that they were married. Were they not? Did it end poorly? And why do you continue to think that it's disparaging information when you've been advised that WP policy doesn't find anything wrong with a statement of this fact? It is notable information in album articles if other family members contribute and said fact is noted by reliable sources. Additionally, it's not WP's job to refrain from citing a notable statement simply because some parties may prefer that it not be brought up. As you note, it's a minor matter, but you still have yet to really say why you find this to be untrue and/or defamatory information. It's pretty innocuous, really, and only there due to the reliable sources. The other important point: you need to review the sources and make sure that you're not wedging in info that the source doesn't actually mention--it's not enough to rewrite a sentence if the reliable source doesn't mention what you are adding. The last point about possessiveness--I work in the reference room of an academic library. All I care about is adding reliable sources. This isn't a matter of "not allowing other editors to improve the language of the article"--you removed a reliably cited statement, which was then backed up with two other RSs, while still failing to say why you are so offended by the information. WP is not "improved" by choosing to ignore reliable sources. Cheers. Caro7200 (talk) 14:07, 4 July 2025 (UTC)

No, that did not clarify. You did not answer most of my questions. It is not inherently "unprofessional" to mention that musicians are spouses, nor is there any explanation as to why any of Caro's sources would hypothetically get this detail wrong. Whether or not other wikis mention it have zero relevance to this discussion. None of what you've stated constitutes a valid reason to remove this information. Sergecross73 msg me 15:01, 4 July 2025 (UTC)