Talk:Puntland

Puntland declares temporary independence

https://www.barrons.com/news/somalia-s-puntland-shuns-federal-institutions-over-vote-reform-d8563fdb — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.24.65.15 (talk) 11:13, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 April 2024

X=As it is. X=Remove the Category "States with limited recognition" as it is part of Somalia. 80.4.77.150 (talk) 17:35, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

 Done Good catch. PianoDan (talk) 21:33, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Change Demonym

Hello, i have a request. Can you change the Demonym from Puntlander to Puntite? It is the new name for the inhabitants of Puntland. The Macrobian (talk) 17:48, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Or the correct name i should say.

The term Puntite was used to describe the early somali peoples of the Land of Punt which is where Puntland gets its name from. The Macrobian (talk) 17:52, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 February 2025

In Section 1.1, Majeerteen and Hobyo Sultanates, there is an incorrect redirect for Alula in the fourth sentence:

"Boqor Osman was one of the prominent Darood clan chiefs who ruled the ancient towns of Alula, Bargaal, Bosaso and Hafun [...]"

The link to Alula here misdirects to the page related to the alula, part of a bird's wing, when it should redirect to Alula, Somalia as it does in the previous sentence. Futurecrops (talk) 03:40, 18 February 2025 (UTC)

• Done. Thanks. Drmies (talk) 03:42, 18 February 2025 (UTC)

Repeated insertion of inaccurate independence claims

Please refrain from promoting false claims of independence! All the cited sources mention that Puntland considers itself part of Somalia and explicitly state, "We do not want independence." Puntland has only withdrawn from cooperating with the federal government of Somalia. Autonomy is not secession. Stick to neutrality. Wikipedia is not for promoting your beliefs and interpretations of topics. Majid8097 (talk) 08:16, 14 July 2025 (UTC)

State staus

@Abo Yemen can you explain to me how Puntland is a federal member state if it has withdrawn its recognition of the federal government and does not recognize itself as being part of the federal system? Look at the Bloomberg article that has been cited. It lays it out clearly.

“The Puntland government has withdrawn its recognition and confidence in the federal government institutions until such time as a comprehensive constitutional framework is negotiated and agreed upon by the Somali people, of which Puntland is a part of,” it said. Pending a referendum, Puntland “shall exercise powers of an independent state.” Meaning Puntland will operate on its own outside of the federal framework. I even cited the official government statement which states Puntland has nullified its recognition of the federal government and they will govern themselves with full autonomy. It does not recognize the authority of the federal government, nor does it consider it a legitimate entity, therefore it does not currently consider itself a federal state. How can it be part of a government it doesn't recognize? It is within Somalia yes, but it cannot be a federal member if it considers the current federal system to be illegal. Limegreencoral (talk) 08:38, 14 July 2025 (UTC)

Pending a referendum
Did that referendum happen? Also go read the post above yours 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 08:42, 14 July 2025 (UTC)

I keep mentioning this, but nowhere in the article did I state Puntland was independent from Somalia. The Puntland government has chosen to operate independently outside of the federal framework. There was no consensus reached as Puntland has not agreed to the constitutional amendments. It views the current government as being an illegal entity. It does not recognize its authority or its status as being a federal state under the governments jurisdiction. Limegreencoral (talk) 08:47, 14 July 2025 (UTC)

You've changed lots of stuff, incl the official name, in a way that implies it being independent 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 08:55, 14 July 2025 (UTC)

The name? I reverted it to Dowladda Puntland which is the official name. Look at the statement below from the official state house account. It refers to itself as that.

https://x.com/Plstatehouse/status/1774207039138365682 Limegreencoral (talk) 09:01, 14 July 2025 (UTC)

No referendum has happened. GeoEvan (talk) 22:47, 14 July 2025 (UTC)

@Abo Yemen@Majid8097 The official statement from the Puntland government on March 30 specifically mentions that under article 4 of its constitution it reserves the right to reevaluate its relationship with the federal government. It withdrew its recognition and stated its intent to operate with full autonomy. It will not adhere to the federal system it views as illegitimate. It views the constitution as being annulled and the government as having no authority.

Sida uu qabo Dastuurka Dowladda Puntland Qodobkiisa 4-aad, farqaddiisa 3- aad, Dowladda Puntland waxay yeelanaysaa awood dowlad dhamaystiran oo madax bannaan inta laga helayo hannaan dowladeed oo federaal ah, heshiisna lagu yahay, lehna dastuur Soomaali heshiis ku tahay, afti dadweynena loo qaaday oo ay Puntland qayb ka tahay aasiga ah ee

From the statement, it clearly states that it will operate independently. The Bloomberg article cited mentions this.

There are also sources that back the claim of Puntland withdrawing from the federal system. As it does not consider itself to be integrated into the current federal system, it is not a federal member state.

https://www.africanews.com/2024/04/02/somalia-puntland-refuses-to-recognise-federal-government-after-disputed-constitutional-cha//

"The semi-autonomous state of Puntland says it has withdrawn from the country's federal system and will govern itself independently until constitutional amendments passed by the central government in Somalia are approved in a nationwide referendum."

http://swp-berlin.org/10.18449/2024C50/

Relations between Mogadishu and the federal member states are already strained. At the end of March, Puntland announced that it would withdraw from the country’s federal system after the federal government had pushed the first chapters of a constitutional reform through parliament. Limegreencoral (talk) 09:35, 14 July 2025 (UTC)

You cite Puntland’s statement about Article 4 and its claim to “operate independently” pending constitutional changes. However, this phrase refers to autonomy 'within Somalia’s federal framework', not full secession or formal independence.

Your own sources say Puntland “withdraws from the federal system” 'until' constitutional amendments are approved by referendum. This clearly implies a temporary suspension of cooperation, 'not' a permanent exit or declaration of independence.

The Africanews source even calls Puntland a “semi-autonomous state”, an explicit acknowledgment it remains part of Somalia’s federal structure, albeit in dispute.

Wikipedia’s role is to reflect what reliable sources say without inserting interpretations or extrapolations. The correct, neutral description is that Puntland is an 'autonomous Federal Member State in constitutional dispute', not an independent state.

Please stop presenting partial quotes as if they prove full independence. This misleads readers and violates WP:NPOV and WP:V. Somalia’s federal structure and Puntland’s constitutional position are complex, and understanding the full context requires careful consideration of all relevant sources and legal documents.

Before making definitive claims about Puntland’s status, it is important to engage thoroughly with the official texts and reliable analyses to avoid misinterpretation or original research.

Maintaining accuracy and neutrality is essential for Wikipedia’s credibility. Majid8097 (talk) 09:46, 14 July 2025 (UTC)

Temporary or permanent, Wikipedia articles should reflect current events. It is not a federal member state if it has reevaluated its inclusion within the federal system. How is it part of a federal framework it doesn't even recognize? That doesn't make any sense. Limegreencoral (talk) 09:49, 14 July 2025 (UTC)

But Puntland does not consider itself a “de facto state”, does it? The correct Somali term for a Federal Member State is “Maamul-Goboleed,” which reflects its constitutional role. While “Dowlad” simply means “state” and is often used for political emphasis, it does not imply sovereignty. For accuracy and consistency with Somalia’s constitutional language, we should use “Maamul-Goboleedka.” Let me know if you need clarification. Majid8097 (talk) 10:20, 14 July 2025 (UTC)

Additionally, while the term “Dawlad” (state) is often used in Puntland’s political rhetoric and preferred by some leaders, both the Federal Constitution of Somalia and Puntland’s own constitution formally designate Puntland as a “Federal Member State,” not a fully sovereign state or independent country.

This distinction matters because Wikipedia’s descriptions must follow official constitutional terminology and internationally recognized status rather than political slogans or informal usage.

Emphasizing the constitutional terms helps maintain neutrality and avoids endorsing politically loaded language. Using “Federal Member State” or "Maamul-Goboleed" aligns with Somalia’s federal system as recognized by the federal government and most sources. Majid8097 (talk) 09:49, 14 July 2025 (UTC)

What are you talking about? The official Puntland constitution says "DAWLADDA PUNTLAND EE SOOMAALIYA"

You are the one who changed it for no reason.

https://puntlandparliament.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/Puntland-Constitution.pdf Limegreencoral (talk) 09:51, 14 July 2025 (UTC)

The Puntland constitution does use the term “Dawladda Puntland ee Soomaaliya” (Puntland State of Somalia). However, both the Puntland constitution and the Federal Constitution of Somalia officially classify Puntland as a Federal Member State (“Xubinta Federaalka”) within Somalia’s federal system.

The use of “Dawlad” in this context will refer to Puntland’s autonomous governing authority a full independent country. Wikipedia reflects the official constitutional status recognized nationally and internationally, which is Puntland as an autonomous Federal Member State, not an independent country.

Changing wording for clarity and accuracy is necessary to align with widely accepted constitutional and legal definitions, not to contradict Puntland’s documents. Majid8097 (talk) 09:57, 14 July 2025 (UTC)

That is irrelevant. How the Puntland government names itself is what the article should state. This isn't an article on Somalia, but rather Puntland. I'm not sure where you get the notion that Wikipedia must reflect official constitutional status as if that was the case the Somaliland article would say Maamul-Goboleedka Somaliland ee Soomaaliya. The wording must reflect how Puntland views itself. Limegreencoral (talk) 10:02, 14 July 2025 (UTC)

pinging @GeoEvan who first removed the independence claims from the article and @Chipmunkdavis who participated in this discussion (Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Limited recognition#Puntland?) 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 09:46, 14 July 2025 (UTC)

Also pinging @QalasQalas. I do want to note that the crux of the issue isn't whether or not Puntland is independent from Somalia, it's not. The main point that I am making is that because of its withdrawal from the federal system, it is a state within Somalia not bound by the federal framework which negates its inclusion as a federal member currently. Although this is temporary until an agreement on the constitution is made, the article must reflect this. Limegreencoral (talk) 11:11, 14 July 2025 (UTC)

Accoring to article 4 of Puntland constitution and the statement of Council of Ministers they are no longer federal member state, independent armed force, education and everything. QalasQalas (talk) 11:58, 14 July 2025 (UTC)

That doesn't prove anything, all other federal member states have their own independent armed forces, education and healthcare. Puntland officials themselves explicitly said "We don't want independence" and this is just a constitutional dispute. I suggest you read all the sources cited carefully. Majid8097 (talk) 12:02, 14 July 2025 (UTC)

Okay. So I've actually since written a whole article about this on PolGeoNow (which I own and edit): Did Puntland Declare Independence? . Just putting this here to represent my thoughts and as a possibly useful collection of sources (see links in the article) for anyone here trying to wrap their head around the situation. Not sure if there's any consensus anywhere on Wikipedia on whether PolGeoNow approaches "Reliable Source" status (our maps are used by well-established RS's, and we're occasionally cited by them in other ways too, but it's not up to me, and I could see the argument that we have features of a "self-published" source).

So, something that's been mostly (not entirely) missing from the discussion on this talk page is that the Puntland government has continued to state that it's part of Somalia. Furthermore, the original statement made very clear that it was temporary, with the intention of re-integrating into the federal system once they feel like it. It's also not all that new - the Puntland government has suspended relations with Mogadishu at least a couple times before, with the biggest different this time being that they were cheeky enough to throw the word "independent" into their statement. As far as my own analysis, I essentially agree with @Limegreencoral that "it is a state within Somalia not bound by the federal framework which negates its inclusion as a federal member currently" - but I'm not sure this is absolutely the same thing as being entirely divorced from the federal system as a concept. More importantly, I'm not super convinced that this Wikipedia article absolutely must describe that situation even in the absence of good secondary sources (which unfortunately I think will be hard to find, since news media aren't usually able to engage with the de jure implications of things like this in a thoughtful, expertly-informed, or in-depth way, and professional researchers' interest in the topic seems limited). My solution would be to mention the statements (both about operating independently and about being part of Somalia) without drawing any conclusions. GeoEvan (talk) 23:56, 14 July 2025 (UTC)

@GeoEvanI'm fine with that as well. What do you think though about the article instead saying autonomous instead of semi-autonomous? If it is choosing to operate with full autonomy like the statement said, then I believe the article should say autonomous state. Limegreencoral (talk) 01:48, 15 July 2025 (UTC)

My personal view is that "semi-autonomous" is flatly incorrect - Puntland has about the maximum conceivable autonomy for a country subdivision, so if Puntland is "semi-autonomous", I don't know what "fully autonomous" is (people must be thinking it means "recognized as de jure independent", but I don't see how it can reasonably mean that). However...the fact is that the vast majority of WP:RS seem to call it "semi-autonomous", so I'm not sure what the best thing for us to do would be as far as Wikipedia guidelines. Is someone here better-versed than me in how to deal with terminology from a majority of WP:RS that's inconsistent with the way the terms are used on Wikipedia? GeoEvan (talk) 00:53, 16 July 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for the article, it’s actually a solid source that clarifies the confusion. Ironically, it supports the very point I’ve been making. Puntland is not declaring independence in the international or constitutional sense, it’s exercising a temporary protest by suspending cooperation, something it has done several times before as even your article mentions. If Puntland has repeatedly suspended ties with Mogadishu and is again doing so now, while still insisting it's part of Somalia and its leaders explicitly say "We do not want independence", doesn’t that just show that this is a political protest within the federal structure, not a declaration of independence? To me, it reinforces the idea that Puntland is behaving like a federal state asserting autonomy due to dissatisfaction with the current federal administration. It is not abandoning the concept of Somalia or its status as a Federal Member State but is temporarily withdrawing cooperation. Your own article highlights that this is not unprecedented, it is part of a recurring pattern when there is frustration with Mogadishu. It is also frustrating to see how the user who pinged you seems more focused on labeling Puntland as a De facto State of East Africa rather than addressing what the sources actually say, which only adds more confusion to a situation that is already tense but not as extreme as he tries to frame it. The facts on the ground point to a federal state in protest, not a breakaway country. Majid8097 (talk) 06:18, 15 July 2025 (UTC)

I don't think you and I disagree. That all sounds pretty much correct, and consistent with what I was trying to say (though maybe I wouldn't state it quite so unambiguously). GeoEvan (talk) 00:47, 16 July 2025 (UTC)

Government type

@Abo_Yemen why did you remove the addition of the government type? The form of governance locally is a presidential system. The head of state is the president. Why wouldn't its form of governance not be included in the article? Limegreencoral (talk) 14:56, 22 July 2025 (UTC)

explain what a "Presidential system as a Federated state" is 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 15:02, 22 July 2025 (UTC)

A federated state that operates under a presidential system. How do you want to phrase it? The other state articles use "Federated state under a presidential democracy", but I don't believe the democracy part is accurate. You can say Federated state under a presidential system instead. Limegreencoral (talk) 15:13, 22 July 2025 (UTC)

Firstly, do you have a source that says that Puntland is a presidental state? 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 15:15, 22 July 2025 (UTC)

https://puntlandparliament.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/Puntland-Constitution.pdf

Qodobka 56aad

Hannaanka Dawladda

Hannaanka Dawladda Puntland wuxuu ku dhisan yahay nidaamka doorashooyinka Dimuqraadiga ah ee Madaxtooyada, Madaxweynaha iyo Madaxweyne ku-xigeenka waxaa soo dooranaya dadweynaha, sida ku cad qodobka 44-aad ee Dastuurka

Article 56

System of Government

The Puntland system of government is based on a system of democratic presidential elections, with the President and Vice President elected by the people, as stipulated in Article 44 of the Constitution.

By the way when I said I don't believe the democracy part was accurate, I was referring to the other states. Puntland's constitution states it's a democracy so you can say presidential democracy instead of presidential system if you want. Limegreencoral (talk) 15:30, 22 July 2025 (UTC)

Oh yeah you're right. I dont like the "Presidential system as a Federated state" wording tho. I think that the best thing to do here, unless that there is a better way to phrase it, is to remove the government_type param completely and let the readers read that there is a president and a vice president 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 15:37, 22 July 2025 (UTC)

You can maybe say 'Federated state governed under a presidential system'? I am fine though with removing the gov_type like you suggested if the wording is off. Limegreencoral (talk) 15:49, 22 July 2025 (UTC)

It's better than the previous wording, but I'm not in for including anything. I've added a discuss tag to see if anyone wants to suggest another wording 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 16:24, 22 July 2025 (UTC)

No one offered any other ideas. I believe it should be either just 'presidential system' or 'presidential democracy' since the article lead already mentions it as a state or just remove the parameter entirely. Limegreencoral (talk) 13:50, 2 August 2025 (UTC)

"Federated state governed under a presidential system" can work 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 14:18, 2 August 2025 (UTC)

No one else joined in the discussion still, do you want to just remove the government_type param? Like you said, the reader can see that there's a state president already. I sort of agree that the wording suggested sounds a bit off. I also think it could be interpreted differently. Limegreencoral (talk) 17:14, 12 August 2025 (UTC)

Limegreencoral, Abo Yemen I saw that a discussion was invited but didn’t get any replies, and then some changes were made. I’m jumping in now because I think changing “Federated Member State of Somalia” to “government of Puntland” isn’t quite right. The original phrase might sound a bit awkward, but it’s more accurate since Puntland is part of Somalia’s federal system and not a fully independent government. Maybe something like “Puntland State government” would be clearer and fairer. Just throwing that out there, happy to hear what others think so we can find wording that works well. Majid8097 (talk) 06:02, 13 August 2025 (UTC)

@Majid8097 Puntland was independent from Somalia based in Mogadishu in every aspect QalasQalas (talk) 09:41, 13 August 2025 (UTC)

I appreciate your contributions as a Somali Wikipedia editor. That said, I’ve noticed patterns of bias and one-sided narratives in your edits, including on Jubaland crisis and Battle of Ras Kamboni (2024). Your user page also indicates a partial perspective. Please remember that Wikipedia is a neutral space for verifiable information, not a platform for promoting personal, clan or political viewpoints. All edits must remain fact-based and adhere to Wikipedia standards. Majid8097 (talk) 11:25, 13 August 2025 (UTC)

The government body tag was added to redirect to the government article. The gov_type parameter was removed since the wording choices could be confusing and the reader can already see that there is a presidential system with the president role. Limegreencoral (talk) 20:13, 13 August 2025 (UTC)

@Limegreencoral feel free to remove it 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 18:32, 12 August 2025 (UTC)

@Abo Yemen Puntland did not participate NCC member states in Mogadishu since 2023, so why are calling federal member state? Do you follow Somalian politics? QalasQalas (talk) 11:01, 2 August 2025 (UTC)

I follow what sources say 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 11:03, 2 August 2025 (UTC)

Template:Infobox country

@Abo_Yemen, you changed from {{Infobox country}} to {{Infobox state}} but why? QalasQalas (talk) 11:02, 1 August 2025 (UTC)

take a guess 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 11:10, 1 August 2025 (UTC)

PL recognition of current admin

The lead says PL doesn’t “accept” the current administration in Somalia. It should be changed “recognise” instead. ~2026-19698-9 (talk) 11:35, 10 January 2026 (UTC)

PL recognition of current admin

The lead says PL doesn’t “accept” the current administration in Somalia. It should be changed “recognise” instead. ~2026-19698-9 (talk) 11:41, 10 January 2026 (UTC)

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