Talk:Hackney carriage

Move

Move to London taxi or black taxi. Hackney carriage is never used as a name and nearly no-one has heard of it. 2A02:C7E:3AA0:9200:CDAD:B827:33D3:6E03 (talk) 17:49, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Pretty bad

This article doesn't even explain where the word "Hackney" came from (for this vehicle). My gosh, it doesn't even give a date for its first appearance!! (in English) My best *guess* is that its origin is obscure - possibly from French, Belgian, or from a breed of horse. But who knows? (I bet someone does.)174.130.71.156 (talk) 22:41, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Move

Move to London taxi or black taxi. Hackney carriage is never used as a name and no-one has heard of it. 2A02:C7C:847D:400:39DD:23AF:235:32EF (talk) 00:10, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

There are already redirects for London taxi and black taxi.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 10:13, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Reverted edit; please discuss

@Landpin: I reverted your edit because it was too drastic, no prior discussion, and you mentioned content had been moved to another page. However, you didn't mention WHAT page, nor did I find any new "see also" or similar links left behind where you had removed content.

Please discuss.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 05:12, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

There was a significant amount of content from Hackney carriage which was specifically about taxis in London, and not the general concept of Hackney carriages. There was a template saying this article does not represent a "worldwide view" of this topic, beecause it was too skewed towards London.

There was a significant amount of content from Taxis of the United Kingdom which was specifically about taxis in London and not taxis in the United Kingdom in general.

So I wrote Taxis of London to contain all the London-specific content rather than it being spread across 2 pages. Landpin (talk) 07:44, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

I'll start by mentioning that my primary interest is in the content related to horses and carriages, not motorized taxis, but I noticed your edit also excised some of the horse content from this article.

As for the {{Globalize}} hatnote... despite some Canadian IP editor tagging the article with the hatnote and leaving no discussion or edit summary of value, does any other country besides UK use the term "hackney carriage"? My brief checking tells me that it is primarily British, and Canada doesn't use the term, nor does USA or Australia.

Asking an AI search engine several questions, it responded with these answers:

The term "hackney carriage" is not commonly used in Canada for taxis. While Canada does have regulations for taxis similar to the UK, the term "hackney" is more associated with horse breeds and carriage driving in Canadian equestrian circles. In Canada, taxis are generally referred to as "cabs" or "taxicabs", and licensing varies by province and municipality.

The term "hackney carriage" is primarily used in the United Kingdom, but it has also been historically used in some former British colonies. Here are a few places where the term has been recognized:

• United Kingdom – The term is still widely used for licensed taxis.
• Ireland – Hackney carriages exist as a separate category from regular taxis.
• Australia – Some states historically used the term, but "taxi" is more common now.
• New Zealand – The term was used in older transport regulations.
• India – During British rule, hackney carriages referred to horse-drawn taxis, but the term is now obsolete.
• United States – The term was used in the 18th and 19th centuries but is now mostly historical.

So I would posit that the hatnote should have been removed, rather than splitting or WP:FORKing WP:CFORKing this article.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 16:16, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

The fact that for most of the world it is a historical term previously used means that I think the article on Hackney carriages should reflect the fact that it is a mostly historical term.

https://police.boston.gov/hackney-carriage-unit-2/

https://www.untappedcities.com/hacks-medallions-and-livery-the-differences-between-new-york-and-london-taxi-drivers/

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/blue-line-unveils-new-london-cabs-1.395221

https://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdb//au/legis/nsw/num_act/hcsa1847n21266/

https://www.becauseofthemwecan.com/blogs/botwc-firsts/meet-james-wormley-the-owner-of-washington-d-c-s-first-integrated-hotel

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1068/a181559

https://www.legco.gov.hk/yr05-06/english/panels/tp/papers/tpcb1-tsrpt-e.pdf

https://kpcode.kp.gov.pk/uploads/HACKNEY-CARRIAGE_ACT,_1879._.pdf

Just a cursory search for sources brings up enough sources that would justify a page on the global history of the term as a historical term.

Regardless, while it is used in Great Britain as a modern term, I don't think such a degree of focus on the specific history in London really makes sense, when most people in Great Britain do not live in London. Taxis in Great Britain also have 4 separate regulatory regimes essentially (non-London England, London, Scotland, Wales), and I don't think an article about with the title "Hackney carriage" which could apply to all of these systems should focus on just one of them.

https://www.gov.uk/find-licences/hackney-carriage-licence

This is why I think a 3 page structure works better

• Taxis of the United Kingdom which would cover taxis as they are today in the UK
• Taxis of London which would cover taxis as they are today in London and the history of Taxis in London
• Hackney carriage which would cover the mostly historical terminology of "Hackney carriage"

I apologise if i removed too much of content from Hackney carriage. I did not mean to do that. Landpin (talk) 20:48, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

Your outline for a "3 page structure" is pretty sound, though most of the carriage history shouldn't be in the London article because it was not exclusive to London, and it is the history for cabs everywhere in the world. I recommend the following:

• Use Taxis of the United Kingdom as a guide to how to focus the London article without getting bogged down with too many historical details.
• Keep the reverted version of Hackney carriage and work from there.
• In section "Etymology" add content that explains which countries use or used the term "hackney carriage", when, and to mean what. That covers the history and worldwide nature of the term. If insufficient, then perhaps add some to the history section as well. ( Done.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 05:34, 22 June 2025 (UTC))
• Remove the {{Globalize}} tag.
• Keep the horse and carriage history in Hackney carriage. Remove most of it from Taxis of London and point to Hackney carriage for the rest.
• Leave the legislation boxes in Hackney carriage, though perhaps they should have their own section because such a long list of these boxes (even collapsed) interferes with the display of images. Maybe add just a few pertinent ones to the London article, like the five which use "London" in their titles.
• Keep in mind that "hackney carriage" is a term that originated in England and though it was carried to other British colonies, it didn't remain in use in those areas much beyond the motorization of transport. England, being the traditionalist country it is, and their laws depending on old (and sometimes very very very old) legislation, is the one who remains using the term though mostly as a regulations and licensing term... not a contemporary term in use by the average person.
• Go ahead and move/trim content of the "Black cabs" section as you did before, though you should try to figure out how to present "Notable drivers" and "Private users" without simply duplicating it in both articles.
• Interestingly, it seems that "Black cab" could even be a standalone article of its own.

As I mentioned before, I'm mostly concerned about the horse-drawn content, and I feel strongly that it should remain under "hackney carriage". I think together we can get this article reorganized well.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 04:04, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

Remise

I have removed the sentence containing "remise". One should not rely on a half-sentence definition of "remise" from an online dictionary in order to put it [incorrectly] into the lead paragraph. A remise has never been a hackney carriage; it falls in the category of private hire vehicles (carriages & coaches).

The term remise is a French term meaning, basically, a place where the carriages are stored such as a coach house, carriage house, stable, shed, etc. Remise wasn't used in England for hackney carriages, nor even in France. Hackney carriages were the hail-from-the-street public hire vehicles. Remises were privately contracted vehicles which in England were called "private hire carriages or coaches". For the well-to-do, or those who simply didn't want to go through the difficulties and expenses of having their own stables, horses, carriages, coachmen, etc. one would contract with an establishment to use their horses, carriages and coachmen who would wear the livery of the hiring family, though the establishment also provided their own branded-livery for families without their own.

Sources:

• Magnaudeix, Patrick (2017-09-25). "L'organisation d'un établissement de location de voitures en 1904: la maison "Rivière"" [The organization of a carriage rental establishment in 1904: the "Rivière" house]. attelage-patrimoine.com (in French).
• "Location de chevaux et de voitures de luxe à la fin du XIX° siècle" [Rental of horses and luxury carriages at the end of the 19th century.]. attelage-patrimoine.com (in French). 2012-05-01. An excerpt from an article in Sport Universel Illustré on 25 Décembre 1897 titled "Les industries hippiques" [The horse-drawn industries].
• "L'HISTOIRE DU VTC DE 1789 À NOS JOURS" [The History of the Private Driver from 1789 to the Present Day]. breizhcab-limousine.com (in French). 2020-05-02. (an English translation)

  ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 04:06, 22 June 2025 (UTC)