Talk:Egon Mayer

Involvement in Robert S. Johnson Near-Fatal Engagement

In the World War 2 section, the article recounts Johnson’s story that appears in the book, and ends with discrediting the suggestion of Mayer’s involvement:

“Other authors have expressed doubt about Mayer's alleged encounter with Johnson. There is no direct evidence Mayer was involved in this battle. No III./JG 2 pilot is present on victory or loss records according to the most complete German sources.“

There is no source cited in the article to affirm Mayer’s involvement, only Johnson’s book which does not mention Mayer.

I attempted to fix this in this revision (which was reverted): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Egon_Mayer&oldid=1197388437

The origins of the idea of Mayer’s involvement is discussed here: http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=9598

From what I’ve read, it seems was a hearsay radio broadcast with Mayer’s bragging of shooting down a specific tail number that was mentioned in a book, and then the history channel ran with it and popularized it. This seems far too weak to be written up as fact in what should be an encyclopedia.

There are lots of sources alleging Mayer’s involvement in the engagement, but nothing primary; it seems to be a big urban legend people ran with since Mayer was a famous pilot and it makes the Johnson’s story (which already has enough doubt with Gerald Johnson’s version) more interesting. If anyone can find credible citations to support Mayer’s involvement, please add them. Otherwise, we should remove this tale. Jp346 (talk) 03:25, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

A forum discussion is not a reliable source. In case of conflicting information, Wikipedia should present both views. If you find a book, we can incorporate this view into the article. MisterBee1966 (talk) 05:43, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

I understand that. If you read the forum they discuss the primary sources that can I don’t have a web link to. The original source of the story (Johnson’s biography) does not give an identity for the pilot, and German war records do not indicate Mayer’s involvement in the fight. We should be excluding information without a source rather than including it. Do we have a book or other credible source to support Mayer’s involvement? We do not currently have a citation for this, and we need one. Proof by lack of evidence is not a proof.

I understand including both views in the interest of not taking sides, but we still need a credible citation for Mayer’s involvement and to handle this in a much less biased way, perhaps shortening the anecdote and moving the sentences about lack of evidence to the front of the paragraph? I’ll work on an edit that does this soon. Jp346 (talk) 15:42, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

Please make your suggestion on the talk page first. The article is GA and consent should be reached before changing the article. Thanks MisterBee1966 (talk) 17:55, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

I submitted the edit, with a more impartial tone on the identity of the German pilot. I also added Gerald Johnson's version of the story (which, while less famous, seems to be the one the 56th Fighter Group history page prefers) and a couple more details from Caldwell (1998), like Mayer's Gruppe's location on the day of the battle. I was able to find the citation for the propaganda broadcast in which Mayer claimed to have shot down a plane that may have been Johnson's (Freeman, 2000). Jp346 (talk) 20:54, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

You used an inconsistent citation style, I will fix that. Additions have to follow the pre-existing style. The reference www.56thfightergroup.co.uk is not reliable and has to be removed. Cheers MisterBee1966 (talk) 06:12, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

@Jp346: Regarding the source "Called to Command: WWII Fighter Ace's Adventure Journey" please provide a page number and location of publication, otherwise we need to remove. Regarding "The Mighty Eighth: A History of the Units, Men and Machines of the US 8th Air Force" please provide a location of publication. Thanks MisterBee1966 (talk) 06:22, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

I found location for both sources, we still require a page number for the Johnson source though. MisterBee1966 (talk) 06:34, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

Glad you were able to find those! I have the Gerald Johnson book through Apple Books, and it doesn’t seem to provide a page number that is consistent across devices. On my phone it shows page 58-61/370, but on my tablet it’s page 26/160. I can put one of those in, but I think it being incorrect is worse than not having it. It’s in Chapter 2, paragraphs 35 and 43. Jp346 (talk) 15:41, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

That is fine. The requirement is that an interested reader easily can find and verify the information. MisterBee1966 (talk) 05:46, 23 May 2025 (UTC)