Talk:Dales Pony

March 2011

I have 'upped' this one to B. I will see what else I can do to improve it. ThatPeskyCommoner (talk) 05:55, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

GA Review

collapsing to avoid confusion later

This review is transcluded from Talk:Dales pony/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Cwmhiraeth (talk · contribs) 06:19, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

• I propose to take on this review and will make some preliminary comments soon. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:19, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

First reading

This looks a well written and researched article, but I notice a few minor problems.

• I think the lead should stick to the singular or the plural when referring to the pony and not mix up the two.
• "almost went extinct" - I much prefer "almost became extinct".
• "... but still-low population numbers ..." - I'm not too keen on "still-low".

• I don't see a problem with it, but if you have an alternate suggestion, I'm willing to listen. Dana boomer (talk) 11:54, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

• How about "Today it is used for many different activities, but population numbers are still low and this has led ..."

• Changed. Dana boomer (talk) 00:03, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

• "They should move ..." - Grammatically speaking, "they" here refers to the hind legs, the subject of the previous sentence!
• "... the Dales had great success in trotting races of the 18th century and organized hunts." - It sounds as if the ponies are organising the hunts!
  • • Knowing how smart those UK pony breeds can be, it's not impossible, actually!  ;-) --MTBW
• " to the point that " - This phrase appears twice in two adjoining sentences.
• That's all for the moment. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 18:42, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks for the review. I think I have addressed everything you mentioned, except one point where I replied above. Let me know if there is anything I missed or anything further you see. Dana boomer (talk) 11:54, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

• It's looking good. I have made one suggestion above. Your first image represents a somewhat poor example of the breed doesn't it, what with its size, white muzzle and blaze (or isn't that a blaze?) Cwmhiraeth (talk) 18:25, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

(talk page stalker)That horse in the lead image has only a star and a snip; pretty big ones and they are kind of "dribbling" but they don't connect, maybe a bit onthe flashy side for the registry, but legal. He's also got decent conformation and you can see his head and expression. I looked at what else is out there at Commons, and most of the other images not already used in the article are either poor quality exposure and/or horses that are quite dirty, unkempt, and look kind of crappy. File:Dales Pony Mare & Foal at the Dales Pony Society Breed Show.jpg is the only other image that is remotely suitable for the lead, and IMHO it has the problem of the ribbon covering the horse's eyes, plus it's got a distracting background and the foal is cute, but also covers up the mare. And the foal has a big star on its forehead anyway. Dana can do as she sees fit here, as this is her GA, but thought I'd pop by on behalf of being another member of WikiProject Equine and say that I think it's OK. (FYI, check out horse markings for more info). Montanabw^(talk) 22:23, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Yup, I was going to say the same thing about the lead images coloration - it's not a blaze or a white muzzle, just a (slightly oversized) star and snip. Not sure what the issue is with size? It's hard to tell with no size references, but the horse could definitely be 14-14.2 hands. And the rest of the images on Commons are quite poor, for the various reasons that Montanabw described above. Dana boomer (talk) 00:03, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't know my "star and snip" from my "blaze" and it was a passing comment on the image rather than a problem. The image I like is the shaggy pony on the fells, but it is not really suited to be a lead image. I'll have another read through the article shortly. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:04, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

GA Criteria

• 1a The article is well written
• 1b The article conforms with the MOS guidelines with regard to layout and style.
• 2a&b The article is well referenced and has inline citations for all contentious statements.
• 2c There is no original research as far as I can see.
• 3a&b The coverage is broad enough and the article does not include irrelevant material.
• 4 The article is neutral
• 5 The article has been worked on by the nominator since March 2014 and is stable.
• 6 The images are appropriately licensed.
• 7 The images are relevant to the topic and have suitable captions.
• Overall assessment - Pass.

Missing information

I've translated this article into french, but there's a missing information about the Fatal Foal Immunodeficiency Syndrome (founded with Google Scholar).

• Laura Y. Fox-Clipsham, Stuart D. Carter, Ian Goodhead, Neil Hall, Derek C. Knottenbelt, Paul D. F. May, William E. Ollier et June E. Swinburne, « Identification of a Mutation Associated with Fatal Foal Immunodeficiency Syndrome in the Fell and Dales Pony », PLOS genetics,‎ july 2011 : http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1002133

• L. Fox-Clipsham, J. E. Swinburne, R. I. Papoula-Pereira, A. S. Blunden, F. Malalana, D. C. Knottenbelt et S. D. Carter, « Immunodeficiency/anaemia syndrome in a Dales pony », Veterinary Record, vol. 165, no 10,‎ 2009, p. 289-290 (ISSN 0042-4900) : http://www.aht.org.uk/skins/Default/pdfs/equine_vol5_4_focus3.pdf

• Fox-Clipsham et Laura Yana Awarding, « Foal immunodeficiency syndrome : identification of the causal mutation », University of Liverpool,‎ 2011
• L. Y. Fox-Clipsham, E. E. Brown, S. D. Carter et J. E. Swinburne, « Population screening of endangered horse breeds for the foal immunodeficiency syndrome mutation », Veterinary Record,‎ 2011

I think it's important in a good article ! --Tsaag Valren (talk) 19:07, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Good find! Thanks! Can you link to any of these -even if just the "abstract"? Montanabw^(talk) 00:02, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

New topic

Hi, This was raised at a group meeting of the UK Dales Pony Society yesterday and this lead image really is considered by many breed experts a VERY poor example of the breed and what they represent. We are happy to supply a number of images copyright permission given if someone could direct us in getting it changed that really do represent the breed in a much better and more accurate light. I did try to upload some further images a few years ago but without much success so assistance would be gratefully received as the society gets a fair amount of criticism for this poor image. (Annapennell (talk) 12:05, 26 January 2015 (UTC)) Just to add, I have just managed to upload this image to the commons https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Champion_Dales_Pony_Mare.jpg which is a accepted as a much better representation of the breed, could we please consider getting the lead image altered. Many thanks Anna (Annapennell (talk) 12:14, 26 January 2015 (UTC))

@Annapennell: Thanks for stopping by. The photo you propose is almost what would work here but has a couple minor problems. It is a bit too dark (particularly for the hindquarters) and the right front foot is chopped off a bit on the bottom. Also, it would be good if the handler could be cropped out of the image as much as possible, maybe even a little blurred or photoshopped so the person is not identifiable. We prefer (but don't mandate) that the lead image faces left, i.e. "into" the article (there are exceptions, including the image we have in here now). That alone is not a reason not to use, though. If you could perhaps lighten up the image, crop out or blur the handler and try a second upload, we might be able to add it in. Too bad File:Dales Pony Mare & Foal at the Dales Pony Society Breed Show.jpg has ribbons covering her face and the foal in the way (GREAT example of how black foals aren't born black, though!) Because it has really good lighting and the horse facing the "right" way! Montanabw^(talk) 06:21, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Also, I did update the RBST category. Thanks for that update. Montanabw^(talk) 06:24, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

PPS, also added the image of the horse under saddle; if it would be possible for you to crop that image a bit tighter and re-upload it that way (the original uploader (you) can do this, the rest of us would have to rename it.) It would look a little better at the thumbnail size here. Don't have to, though. Montanabw^(talk) 06:32, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Hi :@Montanabw: , Thanks for that! I can't do a lot with that image but I have just uploaded another option https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Champion_Dales_Pony.jpg which I "hope" fills the criteria a bit better. However, I've shown this to official DPS Photographer and he may upload some himself if this new one I've uploaded to commons isn't any better. Many thanks for your help, its much appreciated. Anna (Annapennell (talk) 17:03, 30 January 2015 (UTC))

I'll swap the images now! As long as he is willing to release his work as CC-GDFL under a free license, the more photos the better! Montanabw^(talk) 23:47, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

That is brilliant, thankyou so much! You've made my week. (Annapennell (talk) 11:09, 1 February 2015 (UTC))

I cropped the ridden stallion photo, undo on Commons if you don't like the result. Montanabw, for future ref, anyone can do that, it doesn't have to be the uploader - follow the "Upload a new version of this file" link low down on the image page. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 13:23, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Good to know; I'm not sure that was always possible (seems like I tried it years ago and it didn't work....) Cropped image a great improvement! All looks a lot better now! Montanabw^(talk) 21:40, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Genetic disease link

Needs to go into article. Montanabw^(talk) 02:56, 28 September 2017 (UTC): http://www.thehorse.com/articles/39703/foal-immunodeficiency-syndrome-test-available-from-gluck?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=health-news&utm_campaign=09-26-2017

Breed registry marketing language

I rolled back recent edits to remove puffery (e.g., shined, vital, highly prized, dedication of a handful, staunchly believed) which though uncited was clearly from the breed registry history page (and per this edit summary), and restore citations which were removed. Per Wikipedia:WikiProject Equine/Horse breed RS guide § Breed registries, "Breed registries may not be reliable sources for non-morphology information because they are prone to "commercial puffery" (WP:ABOUTSELF). History sections in particular should be cross-checked with outside sources where they exist, as breed organizations may promote mythological or romanticized origin stories." Two sources contradict the recent wording: this one, and this one.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 01:43, 21 December 2025 (UTC)

Inaccurate history

The Dales pony history is currently not in alignment with the breed registry, which has a detailed history of the Dales pony. Including:

The article states that the Dales pony was nearly extinct after the world wars, but the Dales Pony Society states that the Dales pony was in good standing after the wars and that the primary driving factor for population decline was mechanization. The breed organization is the only one with population details. The dales pony society website had previously stated that the breed nearly went extinct following the world wars, but the history of the Dales pony has been updated by the society on the website after much investigation. The livestock conservancy has outdated information, and the book cited also cites the Dales Pony Society of America, which doesn’t exist. This information needs to be updated per the breed organization. Additionally, this is a UK breed and UK resources should be used to cite the breed.

The rare breed survival trust also cites the dales pony society for information on the breed. https://www.rbst.org.uk/dales-pony

Aditionally, the history in question was after the dales pony society established the breed stud book and was actively tracking their population. This is not historical lore, but history from the breed society itself.

Jfaleris (talk) 03:11, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

@Jfaleris: Do you breed Dales Ponies or have some connection with the Dales Pony Society?   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 04:53, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

I own 5 dales ponies and actively work with the Dales Pony Conservancy North America. While my mares are not old enough to breed yet, that is in the plan for them once they are ready. I’ve talked to DPS about this topic specifically and was informed of the corrections made by the society. I also have the studbooks since 1915, and while I would rather not digitize all of that information, I can probably find additional support in the stud books. Jfaleris (talk) 16:28, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

Correction: stud book was established in 1916 Jfaleris (talk) 16:35, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

as an example the livestock conservancy says “ By 1955, only four fillies were registered with the breed association.”

I scanned the study book and found at least 6 fillies registered in 1955. While this isn’t glaringly different from 4, it points to the potential for other inaccuracies in the history of the Dales per the Livestock conservancy. Jfaleris (talk) 16:49, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

An except from “Dales Ponies” by Iona Fitzgerald, ©️ 2000:

“No, Dales were entered in volume 28 of the stud book for 1955 to 1956 and it appeared that extinction was about to overtake the breed. Happily, in 1980 all these entries were found in the office of the National Ponies Society. They had been processed, but the entries had never been published in the stud book due to the many discrepancies in the registrations; no doubt due to a breakdown at administration during those very difficult years… in 1956. This number of registrations would have looked healthy. Sadly, only three of the ponies appeared in later pedigrees, most disappeared without leaving registered stock.” Jfaleris (talk) 17:29, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

Here is a 2022 video interview with Catherine York of the Dales Pony Conservancy Board. The video is cued up to the point where she says that Dales Ponies after the war were "critically endangered" and are still on the critically endangered list. This is in alignment with the Livestock Conservancy's information. There's not much difference between the genetic pool of 4 new fillies versus 6 in the 1950s, which still represents "endangered". On the other hand, the language which you tried to change it to is "breed registry puffery"—the pony breed came out of the world wars in a strong position from the dedication of the handful of breeders who staunchly believed in keeping heavy ponies. And this is why the Wikipedia editors of horse breeds decided by consensus that breed registry histories are not reliable sources especially if they contradict other reliable sources (see Horse breed reliable sources guide § Breed registries).

The fact that you work for the Dales Pony Conservancy Board means that you have a conflict of interest for editing this article, which is strongly discouraged on Wikipedia, and that you would be required to declare your relationship per WP:COIDISCLOSEPAY. You're welcome to discuss on the talk page, as we are doing right now, but it is very much discouraged that you edit the article yourself. And since you're a new editor in Wikipedia, you may not be aware of the other guidelines we use when editing articles. I recommend that you get more familiar with Wikipedia editing on "non Dales Pony" articles before attempting this one.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 17:36, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

I personally know Catherine York, and she sits on the same board I do. She got that information that she gave in the interview from the old DPS website. I don’t know how an interview with her is unbiased and my information is biased. I am not with DPS.

Additionally, citation #14 used to cite the Dales Pony history in the Wikipedia article is an old archived page from the Dales Pony Society. This is directly contradictory to what you’re saying about the reliability of the Dales Pony society as a resource when you are using them as a resource for the Dales Pony history.

a book by Iona Fitzgerald titled Dales Ponies also supports the history that I have shared from DPS:

An excerpt from “Dales Ponies” by Iona Fitzgerald, ©️ 2000:

“No, Dales were entered in volume 28 of the stud book for 1955 to 1956 and it appeared that extinction was about to overtake the breed. Happily, in 1980 all these entries were found in the office of the National Ponies Society. They had been processed, but the entries had never been published in the stud book due to the many discrepancies in the registrations; no doubt due to a breakdown at administration during those very difficult years… in 1956 this number of registrations would have looked healthy. Sadly, only three of the ponies appeared in later pedigrees, most disappeared without leaving registered stock.” Jfaleris (talk) 22:57, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

Additionally, Citation #9 appears to have been written by two North American breed organizations, both of which are now defunct. So Wikipedia is using outdated sources of information direct from various breed societies.

citation 14 (DPS website) has been updated and should be used to replace the old outdated website. The Iona Fitzgerald book should also be sufficient.

I would also like to let you know that while I do work with the Dales Pony Conservancy North America, we are not a breed society and do not register the Dales. We work to support the breed in North America, connect the community, and educate people about Dales ponies. The board is also all volunteer. I receive no financial gain from my position on the board. My day job is a medical writer for a biotech company. So my only bias is a passion for these ponies and ensuring the history is accurate and not over exaggerated. Jfaleris (talk) 23:39, 22 December 2025 (UTC)