Talk:Bahdinan

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved per discussion. - GTBacchus^(talk) 16:50, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

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Badinan → Bahdinan – per WP:COMMONNAME and Wikipedia:USEENGLISH

For the usage of emirate, principality, Bahdinan is more common. Badinan is also used as the name of PKK's "operative area".

• Bahdinan Kurds -Llc 179 (1923-2011) 140 (1960-2011) 118
  • Badinan + Emirate -Llc 11
  • Bahdinan + Principality -Llc 29
• Badinan Kurds -Llc 117 (1923-2011) 106, (1960-2011) 103
  • Badinan + Emirate -Llc 5
  • Badinan + Principality -Llc 14
• Behdinan Kurds -Llc 20
  • Behdinan + Emirate -Llc 1 +

Takabeg (talk) 05:18, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

• "Bahdinan Emirate" -Llc 2
• "Badinan Emirate" -Llc 4 -2
• "Emirate of Bahdinan" -Llc 3
• "Emirate of Badinan" -Llc 0
• "Bahdinan Principality" -Llc 3
• "Badinan Principality" -Llc 1
• "Principality of Bahdinan" -Llc 2
• "Principality of Badinan" -Llc 5 - 2

Takabeg (talk) 02:26, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Bahdinan map

Can you also add another map which it show clearly what cities were in the principalities Hogirkurdish15 (talk) 06:50, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Request to Add Sourced Information on Abbasid Cadet Branches in Bahdinan

Hi,

I’m a non-extended-confirmed editor and due to the topic-area restriction, I cannot directly add content to this article. I’d like to request that an extended-confirmed editor review and consider adding the following sourced information:

> Several cadet branches of the Abbasid family emerged in northern Mesopotamia following the re-establishment of the dynasty in the region. In the Emirate of Bahdinan, two prominent clans are particularly noted: the Zewka Shaykha and the Gara clan, both of which are traditionally located in the Gara Mountains near Amedi. These clans are part of the Bargaray tribal confederation and historically functioned as dependencies of both the city of Amedi and the ruling Bahdinan Emirs.

The Zewka Shaykha, also referred to as the Mashayikh Ziwkan or elders of Zewka, became especially prominent among the various Abbasid cadet branches in the region. They are credited with producing the Zewka genealogical tree, a key record documenting the lineages of Abbasid families in Bahdinan, Hakkari, and Shamdinan, along with their offshoots. This genealogical work remains an important source for tracing the connections and hierarchies among the Abbasid cadet branches in Upper Mesopotamia.

I believe this information is relevant to the history of the region and is well-sourced. Any feedback or suggestions for improving the wording are welcome. Thank you for taking the time to review this! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ramy515 (talk • contribs) 16:31, 14 December 2025 (UTC)

I'm not endorsing the request above, but Ramy515 also added the same or similar content at Abbasid dynasty. The citations were also unclear and of uncertain reliability (and appeals to "geneaological traditions" are usually inappropriate on Wikipedia), but I've replaced it with a shorter statement based on what a couple of more reliable sources do (cautiously) state, see this. I'll let other editors decide what to do for this article. Cheers, R Prazeres (talk) 18:59, 14 December 2025 (UTC)

Yes, I am currently looking for an english translation for Mahfouz Abbasi's modern historical text, relying less on genealogical records and more on his field as an historian studying in the region. I will say, I do apologise for my previous more unclear sources, and will do my best to bring the contribution back, but more efficiently.

Thanks for the feedback. Ramy515 (talk) 21:42, 15 December 2025 (UTC)

References

Questionable claim of Arab / Abbasid descent in the lead

The lead currently states that “The Emirs of Bahdinan were originally Arabs.” This assertion is not supported by modern scholarly consensus and is based on later genealogical claims rather than established historical evidence.

Per WP:LEAD and WP:NPOV, contested genealogical traditions, such as claims of Abbasid descent used for political legitimation (see van Bruinessen, Agha, Shaikh and State, p. 208), should not be presented as fact in the lead.

I therefore propose removing the reference to Arab origin from the lead entirely. If retained at all, Abbasid descent claims should be discussed later in the article with proper attribution and scholarly context. Arizantoi (talk) 08:33, 25 December 2025 (UTC)

From the discussion above. an editor already cited better sources that discussed their claim of being Abbasids (see #Dynasties of Abbasid Descent#Abbasid dynasty) which they say:

1. Aboona, Hirmis (2008). Assyrians, Kurds, and Ottomans: Intercommunal Relations on the Periphery of the Ottoman Empire. Cambria Press. p. 174. ISBN 978-1-60497-583-3. The Kurdish emirate of Bahdinan could be considered the oldest one to last until 1842. During 1835-1842, Dr. Grant maintained close relations with its rulers, particularly Ismael Pasha of Amadia, and stated that they claimed to be the descendants of the Abbasid caliphs.
2. Mattar, Philip; Simon, Reeva S.; Bulliet, Richard W., eds. (1996). "Bahdinan family". Encyclopedia of the Modern Middle East: A-C. Macmillan Reference USA. p. 286. ISBN 978-0-02-897064-6. Reputedly descendants of the Abbasid caliphs, highly regarded by the Kurds, and favored by the Ottomans, the Bahdinan family ruled the principality of Amadiya and its dependencies of Aqra, Dair, and Dohuk, all north of Mosul, from the late fourteenth century until its defeat by Injeh Bayraqdar, Wali of Mosul, in 1837.

R3YBOl (🌲) 12:55, 25 December 2025 (UTC)

Both Aboona (2008) and the Encyclopedia of the Modern Middle East explicitly describe claims or reputed descent from the Abbasids, not an established Arab ethnic origin.

Key wording such as “they claimed to be the descendants of the Abbasid caliphs” and “reputedly descendants” indicates genealogical tradition and political self-representation, not verified historical fact.

This distinction is critical under Wikipedia policy:

WP:NPOV / WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV – Disputed genealogical claims must be clearly attributed and contextualized, not stated in Wikipedia’s voice as fact.

WP:WEIGHT – Claims of Abbasid descent do not carry sufficient scholarly weight to define ethnic origin in the lead, especially when they functioned historically as instruments of legitimacy (cf. van Bruinessen, Agha, Shaikh and State, p. 208).

Importantly, Abbasid descent ≠ Arab ethnic identity, and medieval claims of caliphal lineage were common among Kurdish, Turkish, and Persian dynasties seeking recognition. The cited sources themselves do not argue that the Bahdinan rulers were ethnically Arab; they merely record what the rulers asserted. Sulaimanl (talk) 01:39, 26 December 2025 (UTC)

@Semsûrî: – You might have expertise in Kurdish history and tribal structures; your input on the Bahdinan discussion would be appreciated. Sulaimanl (talk) 01:49, 26 December 2025 (UTC)

I’d like to reiterate my earlier point: the current lead states that “The Emirs of Bahdinan were originally Arabs,” but the sources cited (Aboona, 2008, p. 174; Encyclopedia of the Modern Middle East, 1996, p. 286) only describe claims of descent from the Abbasid caliphs, not verified Arab ethnicity.

Per WP:LEAD, WP:NPOV, and WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV, contested genealogical claims should be clearly attributed and not presented as fact in the lead. Therefore, I propose removing the statement about Arab origin from the lead. Any mention of Abbasid descent should appear later in the article with proper attribution and context. Arizantoi (talk) 09:24, 6 February 2026 (UTC)

Adding Founding Date and Founder Details

I can't edit the main page myself directly because my account doesn't meet the protection level requirements. I am asking that an editor or administrator update the text using the folllowing source. The current article text is vague regarding the exact establishment of the Bahdinan principality, only mentioning a broad range around the 1200s. Though according to Dr. Hirmis Aboona's book, Assyrians, Kurds and Ottomans: Intercommunal Relations on the Margins of the Ottoman Empire, the principality was founded by "Malik Khalil al Abbasi" and full rule was established in 1339 Ramy515 (talk) 12:47, 24 June 2026 (UTC)