Talk:Aranese

Number of speakers

I have added the "dubious" tag to the impossible statement in the infobox that Aranese has 250,000 native speakers. The Val d'Aran only has about 7,000 inhabitants, of which only 65% can speak Aranese, according to the referenced EU document. That would give a figure of 4,550 speakers or so. Even Fala, which is not official in Extremadura, seems to have a larger number of speakers, and even accounting for some Aranese speakers who migrated elsewhere, a figure of 250,000 seems impossible. Maybe that is the figure for Gascon, not specifically Aranese, but then it is a dubious figure anyway, as the article is about Aranese. As I could find no evidence of vandalism in the article's history and no reliable source giving an accurate number of speakers (the EU document would only allow interpolations), I decided that tagging would be the best for now. --UrsoBR (talk) 09:23, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

References

Re broken link, I don't speak Aranese, but I wondered whether this reference would this be any help: http://www.324.cat/noticia/26187/valldaran/Un-jove-de-Minnesota-prepara-el-primer-diccionari-aranes-angles Or perhaps: http://www.324.cat/noticia/115912/altres/Presenten-el-primer-diccionari-aranes-angles Or: http://malaltsdeneu.mforos.com/20523/310088-a-minessota-es-parla-el-aranes/ Dawright12 (talk) 21:00, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

I've changed the broken link. Jotamar (talk) 13:49, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Recent changes to the comparison table: comments

Hello,

I made some edits to the comparison table that was recently added since there appeared to be incorrect information. In addition, I made (or tried to make) various improvements. Since I'm not sure if everything I did was right, I summarized the uncertain changes below for all of you to see:

Aranese hèsta /ˈesta/ -> /ˈɛsta/ (ignoring the addition of "(h)", which I am sure is correct)

Aranese castèth /kasˈtet(ʃ)/ -> /kasˈtɛt(ʃ)/

Aranese arrir /aˈriɾ/ -> /aˈri(ɾ)/

... I don't think the change from "e" to "ɛ" was wrong since the PDF on Aranese orthography mentioned in the list of references says that ⟨è⟩ is [ɛ], and it didn't mention any change in pronunciation of ⟨è⟩ in those environments.

As for the final ⟨r⟩ of arrir, I know final R in Occitan infinitives is typically silent, but I'm not sure whether it remains silent if pronouns get attached to it (in Aranese). I think the PDF implied that it remains silent on page 4, but I can't read Aranese all that well.

Catalan riure /rjuɾe/ -> /ˈriwɾe/ (it'd probably be a bit better as as /ˈriw.ɾe/)

Italian ridere /riˈdere/ -> /ˈridere/

Latin rīdēre /ˈridere/ -> /ˈriːdeːre/. I don't know if the rest of the Latin data's fine.

To the Italian 'she' cell, I added ella (with the transcription /ˈɛlːa/) since the pronoun is still in normal use in certain parts of Italy. Note that I don't know actually know whether the stressed vowel is /ɛ/ or /e/ according to the "gold standard". I just went with /ɛ/ since it "felt" better (it really does need to be investigated...).

Finally, don't take my leaving the French data alone as an indication of any sort of belief on my part that there's nothing wrong with it, for I don't know much about French (and absolutely nothing about French accentuation).

Thanks,

Espreon (talk) 22:50, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Firstly, thank you, Espreon for making some edits. I was doing it when I was exhausted after a hard day at work, and regarding the extra stress marks: I was literally copy-pasting code so those slipped in, as did some less-than-perfect transcriptions (especially in languages I'm not too well versed in: Italian, Catalan). Thanks for catching that! For sake of keeping everything in one spot, I'll respond to your comments on my talk page and on this page here.

Re: dialectal /h/ (eg, /'(h)esta/)—I'm conflicted about whether or not to include that. From what the sources say, it only occurs in 2 towns, which have a combined population of 165, and not all of them necessarily speak Aranese. Then again, Aranese has under 5000 speakers so even 100 speakers in Bausen and Canejan would account for 2% of the entire population of speakers. I guess it's not wrong to include it but maybe we should add a note to that table discussing it?

Re: /ɛ/ vs /e/ and /ɾ/ vs /(ɾ)/—My understanding is that /e/ is the phoneme and that [ɛ] is an allophone. Since I was doing phonological transcriptions, not phonetic ones, I believe that all those /ɛ/ should be reverted to /e/. As for the terminal R (such as in infintives), I'm not sure if you would transcribe it phonologically as /ɾ/, /(ɾ)/ or silent. The situation appears very similar to non-rhotic accents of English, and I can't think for the life of me how to phonologically transcribe those accents. If the transcriptions in the table were phonetic, I'd completely agree that it should be /(ɾ)/. Here's what the source says (page 11, note 33):

• R is pronounced [r] between vowels
  • pora, cara
• and [r] at the beginning of a word or in contact with a consonant:
  • còr, pòrta
  • rason, arren
• R in final position is generally mute [Ø]:
  • cantar, víuer, molièr
• Compare:
  • cantarè, viueria, molièra

It's not 100% clear, mostly because the inclusion of còr in that second grouping confuses me. They don't have transcriptions of the words which makes it difficult to "compare". I'm still under the impression that it's a /ɾ/ phoneme with a phonetic realization of silence.

I'll take a look around the internet to see if I can find anything else on the subject.

Let me know your thoughts and I can do the changes if you'd like. I'm new at this editing Wiki thing; I'm just trying to procrastinate grad school applications and that's brought me here haha

Edit: You were right about the E, espreon. There are two phonemes.

Sj122390 (talk) 02:04, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Hello. Sorry for not responding earlier; I've been a bit busy recently.

I'm still not quite sure what to do with word-final ⟨r⟩. If the rhotic cannot be brought back to the surface (with normal processes, at least), then I'd kick it out of transcriptions. I'm getting a sort of tome on Aranese speech soon, so I might find some helpful information on this.

Out of curiosity, what led you to believe that there was not a separate /ɛ/?

As for dialectal /h/, I think we should keep a representation of it in the table, since you bothered to include it in the consonant chart and especially since we currently represent ⟨th⟩ as /t(ʃ)/, and you did add some stuff saying that ⟨th⟩ is only pronounced as [tʃ] in the same two towns. Also, I don't think it's necessary to say that ⟨h⟩ and ⟨th⟩ are only [h] and [tʃ] in those two towns in that table.

I believe we should remove the stress marks from the French transcriptions since this site's articles on French say that French does not differentiate words using stress and that it is not assigned like it is in languages such as Spanish or English. Even transcriptions on this site for readers that aren't familiar with French don't attempt to mark stress.

A quick bit of searching (using this dictionary) suggested that Italian ella ought to be transcribed with /e/ instead of /ɛ/, but I'll look into it some more before doing anything.

Espreon (talk) 07:36, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 26 July 2026

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Moved as an uncontested request with minimal participation. If there is any objection within a reasonable time frame, please ask me to reopen the discussion; if I am not available, please ask at the technical requests page. (closed by non-admin page mover) Jeffrey34555 (talk) 18:33, 4 August 2026 (UTC)

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Aranese dialect → Aranese – Redundant. Eg. Arabic. It directly links here. Beshogur (talk) 18:45, 26 July 2026 (UTC) — Relisting. Jeffrey34555 (talk) 18:50, 2 August 2026 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.