Talk:Appanage Russia

Title and scope

Starting this topic since there will inevitably be a discussion about this.

Since the principalities themselves are a notable topic and there is a lot about them in the literature, I do not think it makes sense to lump them in a list of every entity that has ever existed in present-day Belarus, Russia and Ukraine. So I have started an expansion here.

At the moment this article is focused on the principalities that are usually and can safely be called Russian principalities (i.e. those located in modern Russia such as the northeastern principalities and Ryazan) as opposed to Ruthenian etc. The reason for this is that there was still fragmentation until the late 15th/early 16th century and at this point there is a clear distinction between Russian and Ruthenian (or "West Russian" in Russian sources). For example Paul Bushkovitch in his A Concise History of Russia (2011) refers to these territories as ethnographically Russian. Hence this period is more specific to Russian history while in Belarusian and Ukrainian history, it is instead the Grand Duchy of Lithuania that is being covered. I do not think it makes sense to lump them together and a lot of sources seem to distinguish them while noting the common East Slavic origin and Orthodox ties. In any case, Russian principalities would be the common name generally speaking (see Ngrams as an example). Mellk (talk) 09:47, 11 February 2026 (UTC)

• @Mellk: I disagree about your point of "Russian principalities" in the article concerning exclusively lands of modern-day Russia. First, omitting the principalities of Southwestern Rus' creates an illusion, that all principalities of Kievan Rus' eventually got "reunited" by Moscow, which is not true. Second, it is impossible to draw a clear line between what was "Russian" (in sense of later centralized Muscovite Russia) and "non-Russian" during that time, take from example the Principality of Chernigov/Chernihiv, which covered core lands of both modern Ukraine and Russia. Third, I could find no adequate article grouping all principalities of Rus' in one list, what we have instead is a strange article lumping together Soviet Republics and lands of Rus' in an alphabetical order. So I would expand this article to cover the lands of all former Rus' principalities. Changing the name would also be good, as the term "Russian principalities" creates a connection to modern-day Russia, although many of those entities are historically connected with other modern countries. Skoropadsky (talk) 18:31, 19 February 2026 (UTC)

  In Russian historiography, the "appanage period" is often placed between the Kievan and Muscovite periods and this is what this article should cover. It also does not make much sense to imply that there was still a single "Rus" people by the 15th and 16th centuries. The division of the East Slavs had already began much earlier than this and they were never truly a unified group to begin with (despite the Soviet historiographic position that there was a unified "Old Russian" ethnicity). By this point, the only principalities that were independent were the (Great) Russian ones and they were not annexed by foreign states. You also have books such as A Concise History of Russia (2011) by Paul Bushkovitch that refer to the capture of Smolensk in 1514 as the last of the ethnographically Russian territories outside Moscow's control to be united with Moscow, so yes, we can make a distinction between Russian and non-Russian. The cited sources also make a distinction. Favreau for example distinguishes between Russians and other Eastern Slavs in the book, so I am not sure why you have decided to remove all mentions of "Russian" in the main text. We should follow the literature and not decide on terminology based on personal views. Mellk (talk) 21:56, 19 February 2026 (UTC)

  The list is also completely unsourced so I am inclined to remove this. Mellk (talk) 21:58, 19 February 2026 (UTC)

• I am inclined to agree with Mellk that this article might be redundant, although it is quite well sourced. Skoropadsky said: I could find no adequate article grouping all principalities of Rus' in one list. Well, we've already got List of tribes and states in Belarus, Russia and Ukraine; the link "Rus' principalities" redirects there. How is this article not a WP:REDUNDANTFORK?

However, I am willing to consider a split. If it can be demonstrated that this topic merits a stand-alone article, the scope of this article versus that list should be clearly demarcated. Secondly, I would recommend it to be renamed to Rus' principalities (since Russian is anachronistic for this time period), and make Russian principalities a redirect to this article. NLeeuw (talk) 04:01, 22 February 2026 (UTC)

No wait, it was Mellk who removed the redirect on 30 January 2026 without discussion, not Skoropadsky. It was Mellk who said on this talk page:

At the moment this article is focused on the principalities that are usually and can safely be called Russian principalities (i.e. those located in modern Russia such as the northeastern principalities and Ryazan) as opposed to Ruthenian etc.

I'm afraid that is not a "safe" assertion. Especially in older (pre-1991) literature on the pre-1240 period, what we now commonly call Rus' principalities is often called Russian principalities, including outside the 1991 territory of the Russian Federation. The term is therefore ambiguous and not "safe" to use, but at risk of WP:OR/WP:SYNTH.

Either way, there is a WP:REDUNDANTFORK question that needs to be considered. If that cannot be solved, I think this should be reverted to a redirect. NLeeuw (talk) 04:15, 22 February 2026 (UTC)

Well, the principalities are clearly a notable subject (hence the abundance of sources covering this), while the list of tribes and states (which includes every polity from ancient times to modern times) does not appear to be based on sources. Per WP:LISTCRITERIA, which sources group all of these polities together? That list criteria already arbitrarily chooses modern-day Belarus, Russia and Ukraine.

Either way, I do not think we need to include a list of principalities here because this is where things get subjective (especially concerning appanages) and I do not think there is a source that has this kind of definitive list. The term Russian principalities is still widely used in the literature and the cited sources refer to Russian principalities up to the 15th/16th century (we should follow WP:COMMONNAME and not focus on what it should be), so I am okay with the article focusing with the appanage period (following the period of Kievan Rus'). But if necessary, then the article can be moved to make it clearer that this is about the appanage period and not the disintegration of Kievan Rus'. Mellk (talk) 09:34, 22 February 2026 (UTC)

I agree with NLeeuw, that this article should be better renamed/swapped with "Rus' principalities", because redirecting "Rus' principalities" to a list of all states which had ever existed on the territory of countries connected with medieval Rus' is too unspecific and anachronistic. Concering the list presented in this article, we could reach a compromise solution where unlinked or poorly sourced entires could be removed, and then added later when there are enough sources. Skoropadsky (talk) 22:52, 22 February 2026 (UTC)

You are free to make a separate list, provided it is actually sourced and follows WP:LISTCRITERIA. I have already stated that this article is about the appanage period of Russian history, hence the background section only covers Kievan Rus' briefly. Mellk (talk) 00:25, 23 February 2026 (UTC)

Then, maybe Appanage period in the history of Russia should be the title? That makes unambiguously clear what you mean and do not mean. If no other article deals with this specific topic yet, then that could be a good idea. NLeeuw (talk) 00:38, 23 February 2026 (UTC)

PS: But then I would propose to make Russian principalities a DP. Suggestion:

Russian principalities may refer to:
# Rus' principalities which emerged out of Kievan Rus'; see List of tribes and states in Belarus, Russia and Ukraine.
# Appanage period in the history of Russia.
== See also ==
* Armies of the Rus'  principalities
etc.

If a link is too ambiguous for an article or a redirect, the best option is a DP. NLeeuw (talk) 00:48, 23 February 2026 (UTC)

I support your proposal, but is "List of tribes, states etc. etc." really an adequate redirect for "Rus' principalities"? I don't see how it does any good to presenting various states emerged from Rus', when it also includes socialist republics and other entities from a totally different era. Should we also redirect the article listing states of the Holy Roman Empire to a list of all states which ever existed in the territory of Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, Italy, etc. after 962 AD, including Communist East Germany? Skoropadsky (talk) Skoropadsky (talk) 18:28, 23 February 2026 (UTC)

If this article is related to the "appanage period in history of Russia", then it shouldn't redirect to articles about Rus' principalities in general on other Wikis. Otherwise it will be disorienting for readers. In general, I agree with NLeeuw's proposal for disambiguation. Skoropadsky (talk) 18:22, 23 February 2026 (UTC)

The term Russian principalities is still widely used in the literature.

Yes, but not in the sense that you are proposing as the scope of this article, namely:

Russian principalities (i.e. those located in modern Russia such as the northeastern principalities and Ryazan) as opposed to Ruthenian etc..

As I tried to clarify, it can have several meanings.

A. an obsolete (pre-1991) synonym for Rus' principalities (both after but especially 1240, both outside but especially inside Russia) that (in)directly emerged out of Kyivan Rus';

B. any historic principalities on the post-1991 territory of the Russian Federation, regardless of whether they had anything to do with Kyivan Rus' or not.

Your argument above is that this article should be about B. However, I think it is pretty evident that A is the more commonly used meaning in the English-language literature (even though after 1991 (some sources even earlier) the literature has shifted towards Rus' principalities instead, to avoid confusion with what later became Russia). Assuming that B is what most sources mean is therefore not a "safe" assumption, and therefore WP:COMMONNAME probably does not apply.

There are plenty sources which consider all states and tribes on the territories of modern Belarus, Russia and Ukraine together. These are all sources you, and the others have been using in the past several years. Long story short, there is consensus to treat them all together in List of tribes and states in Belarus, Russia and Ukraine. There is no consensus to split off a subset of the States mentioned there. In fact, this is a discussion you and I have had before. I proposed to create a Category:Rus' principalities, but this idea was initially rejected because it ran the risk of becoming a WP:SUBJECTIVECAT. Eventually, it was agreed that the List of tribes and states in Belarus, Russia and Ukraine would form the basis of the category, and that all entries on the list should be properly sourced as being a Rus' principality. I don't see the point of another spin-off article with a largely duplicate list, when the category already serves that function. Not to mention the Template:East Slavic principalities. NLeeuw (talk) 00:33, 23 February 2026 (UTC)

My point was that those principalities located within modern-day Russia usually tend to be referred to as Russian principalities (if we want to use an actual obsolete term, then Great Russian or East Russian principalities). I am not referring to any principality that ever existed within the modern-day borders, such as on lands inhabited by Finno-Ugric peoples. The sources I cited here (nearly all of which are recent) use the term Russian principalities and in general I am sure most recent sources make a distinction between Russians and other East Slavs (otherwise it would be strange for Russian principalities to still be dominant according to Ngrams and Google Scholar, but even if the term was applied to all East Slavs, then why wouldn't WP:COMMONNAME apply?). Even the older sources make a distinction between the western and eastern principalities (if the mention of the modern-day border seems arbitrary then let's refer to ethnicity/language instead, although the modern-day border more or less corresponds to this division).

I also never intended to create a list of principalities. The aim of the article was to cover the period from Kievan Rus' to the Tsardom of Russia because everything is scattered across the articles about the principalities, so it made sense to have an article that covers everything. Although I disagree that the list of tribes and states follows WP:LISTCRITERIA. We do not have any other list of tribes and states in a select few countries. But this is besides the point since I have no interest in creating a list of principalities and I am happy with removing the list here. Mellk (talk) 01:25, 23 February 2026 (UTC)

Ok so, your plan is to write only about Rus'/Russian (in the sense of "East Slavic") principalities on the territory of modern-day Russia between 1240 and 1547? If so, then most of the current text in the lead section and the History section is irrelevant. I'm seeing lots of flashbacks to 988, 1054, "the mid-12th century" etc., with lots of tangents about Halych-Volyn', Lithuania, Poland, the Teutonic Order and even Hungary. They have a lot to do with modern-day Belarus and Ukraine, but not so much with the Appanage period in the history of Russia.

From the material that is somewhat relevant to your chosen subject, I don't really see anything that isn't already covered by Golden Horde, Vladimir-Suzdal or Principality of Moscow, or History of Russia#Grand Duchy of Moscow (1283–1547). I see a lot of risks concerning WP:REDUNDANTFORKs, as well as WP:SYNTH/WP:OR by using the term Russian principalities in a different sense than it is (until recently) commonly used (namely, ignoring modern-day borders and including Rus' principalities on the modern-day territories of Ukraine, Belarus, Poland, the Baltic states etc.). NLeeuw (talk) 22:04, 24 February 2026 (UTC)

PS: To clarify: WP:COMMONNAME does not apply if the sources you cite mention Russian principalities primarily in sense A. an obsolete (pre-1991) synonym for Rus' principalities (both before but especially after 1240, both outside but especially inside Russia) that (in)directly emerged out of Kyivan Rus' [INcluding Belarus, Ukraine etc.], if you claim that this article is about Russian principalities in the sense you describe them (which I'll dub sense "C"): those [East Slav] principalities located within modern-day Russia [in] the period from Kievan Rus' to the Tsardom of Russia (EXcluding Belarus, Ukraine etc.]. Ngrams and Google Scholar will give you a lot of false positives, showing sources that use sense A, and which cannot be used to count towards your statistic for establishing a COMMONNAME for sense C. NLeeuw (talk) 23:41, 24 February 2026 (UTC)

Some alternate suggestions

There are so many other more specific topics in the 1240–1547 period in "Russia" (within its modern borders) that do not yet have a stand-alone article in English Wikipedia that I would prioritise if I were you. For example,

• Nevryuy's campaign against Andrey II of Novgorod in 1252
• Vladimir-Suzdal war of succession (1281–1293)
• Dyuden's campaign against the Suzdalian princes in 1293
• Tverian–Muscovite war of 1304–1308
• Battle of Bortenevo of 1317
• Siege of Tver (1375)
• etc.

That would really add something substantially new to English Wikipedia that isn't already covered very well in existing articles. I might even help you out with sources and translations if you like.

Because I don't think this "Russian principalities" article is going anywhere. NLeeuw (talk) 22:04, 24 February 2026 (UTC)

Or...

• Siege of Smolensk (1285)
• Özbeg Khan's 4 punitive expeditions against Moscow (1320–1322)
• Siege of Smolensk (1340)
• Battle near the Shishevsky Forest 1365
• Battle of the Pyana River (1367)
• Battle of the Trosna River (21 November 1368)
• Siege of Ryazan (1391), or was it 1395?
• Siege of Smolensk (1401)
• Sieges of Smolensk (1404)
• Lithuanian–Muscovite War (1406–1408)
  • ending with Edigu's campaign to Moscow (1408)
• Smolensk Uprising 1440
• Muscovite-Novgorodian Wars (1456, 1471, and 1477–1478).
  • including the Battle of Staraya Russa (1456)
• Great Horde–Crimean Khanate conflict (1486–1491)
• Crimean conquest of the Great Horde (1500–1502)
  • ending with the Crimean Sack of New Sarai (1502)

NLeeuw (talk) 22:39, 24 February 2026 (UTC)