Talk:Yole
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The yole as a distinct sailboat type
[edit]@ThoughtIdRetired Thanks. To clarify, this is not about whether a yole is a sailboat, but whether it qualifies for inclusion in Category:Sailboat types. Per WP:CATDEF, categories should be defined by clear, objective characteristics, and per WP:DIFFUSE should avoid grouping topics that lack a single defining feature. For inclusion as a sailboat type, an article should establish a defining, repeatable design (stable hull form and/or rig). This article does not do so. “Clinker-built fishing boat” describes a construction method and use, not a type, and the article provides no standardised dimensions, hull logic, or rig definition. More importantly, yole is a vernacular term, used inconsistently in different contexts. For example, the Martinique yole (see Le Tour de Yoles Rondes de Martinique), and as noted in skiff:
This demonstrates that the term is not design-specific. The lead’s reliance on “the best known is the Orkney yole” suggests that Orkney yole may be a distinct type, but yole generically functions as a regional or historical label, not a canonical sailboat type. Cornellier (talk) 23:08, 19 December 2025 (UTC)
- I think the issue is the difference between the understandings of those classifying boats at different times. For a modern racing dinghy, there are specified dimensions, shapes, weights, etc. At the end of the 19th century, a buyer of, for example, a yole, would rely on the builder turning out a specific type of vessel to the traditional specification, and it is unlikely that they would complain that they got something different from what they expected. As you have spotted, there are regional variations of the yole (within a relatively small geographical area), so your point probably stands. I am no great enthusiast of categories on Wikipedia, but if I were, I would probably be pushing for some less rigid type of definition for traditional craft that had some variation, but were still a defined type in the eyes of those who used them. Maritime terminology is challenging in that (a) some of it has been (historically) extremely precise. I am thinking of when English was the lingua franca of seamen and everyone had to instantly understand the name of every rope on a square-rigger; whilst (b) the definition of some terms varied between seafarers of neighbouring ports (as pointed out in the preface of one of Basil Greenhill's books on traditional craft, which I have momentarily mislaid so cannot cite completely). In passing, I would say that the Martinique yole is taking the word from the French (consider the Yol-de-Bantry). Anyway, your arguments do prevail here. ThoughtIdRetired TIR 12:27, 20 December 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks. Given the regional variation and the lack of a clearly defined, article-level design abstraction, I still don’t think yole meets the bar for inclusion in Category:Sailboat types as currently scoped.
- Unless there are objections, I’ll remove that category in a few days to reflect the discussion here. Cornellier (talk) 17:15, 20 December 2025 (UTC)
- I think the issue is the difference between the understandings of those classifying boats at different times. For a modern racing dinghy, there are specified dimensions, shapes, weights, etc. At the end of the 19th century, a buyer of, for example, a yole, would rely on the builder turning out a specific type of vessel to the traditional specification, and it is unlikely that they would complain that they got something different from what they expected. As you have spotted, there are regional variations of the yole (within a relatively small geographical area), so your point probably stands. I am no great enthusiast of categories on Wikipedia, but if I were, I would probably be pushing for some less rigid type of definition for traditional craft that had some variation, but were still a defined type in the eyes of those who used them. Maritime terminology is challenging in that (a) some of it has been (historically) extremely precise. I am thinking of when English was the lingua franca of seamen and everyone had to instantly understand the name of every rope on a square-rigger; whilst (b) the definition of some terms varied between seafarers of neighbouring ports (as pointed out in the preface of one of Basil Greenhill's books on traditional craft, which I have momentarily mislaid so cannot cite completely). In passing, I would say that the Martinique yole is taking the word from the French (consider the Yol-de-Bantry). Anyway, your arguments do prevail here. ThoughtIdRetired TIR 12:27, 20 December 2025 (UTC)