Talk:Woman

Wardrobe change?

Is there any reason that the woman in the article lead's shirt has been changed form grey to red? The old version is here on the talk page and shows on the simple English Wikipedia page . Ondorus (talk) 00:27, 19 May 2026 (UTC)

Well it turns out the grey photo was an altered version of the red original, so in the interest of fidelity, it seems the original was restored. An enterprising individual could investigate whether that was known/discussed at the time of the RfC. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 01:41, 19 May 2026 (UTC)

To be honest I see no upside to the red. It's distracting and the recoloring to gray is really not a problem - I see no downside to the lack of faithfulness to her actual shirt color. Leijurv (talk) 19:21, 25 June 2026 (UTC)

I mean, I do think the red is distracting, it definitely surprised me when I first saw it. I'm not opposed to changing it back to the grey shirt. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 19:54, 25 June 2026 (UTC)

Alright, I've made the edit. On an old version of the page, oops, embarrassing.... Leijurv (talk) 23:01, 25 June 2026 (UTC)

I prefer the dull blue/gray color myself, for this article. It's less distracting.

I'd also prefer that this one poor woman didn't have to be singled out for the entire rest of her life as literally the picture of womanhood. I'd love to see us pick a handful of images and rotate them. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:19, 20 July 2026 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind being the picture of womanhood for the rest of my life, can I volunteer? Ondorus (talk) 11:00, 23 July 2026 (UTC)

This woman gets abused all over the internet because we put her picture in this article. I don't think that anyone who understands that would actually want that burden. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:47, 23 July 2026 (UTC)

I didn't know that and couldn't find anything about it from a cursory search. Not to detract from the thread too much but do you have a source? I'm curious. Ondorus (talk) 03:49, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

You've got mail. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:14, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

I too would love to see a variety of women's pictures get rotated through the lead. Would it be possible, though, to get a consensus on A. the number of pics and B. the pics themselves? That might be tough. Masterhatch (talk) 19:20, 23 July 2026 (UTC)

I wouldn't want to try more than one a month. If there were four, we could have each one up for three months.

Maybe we could have different ages (e.g., a younger woman, a middle-aged woman, and an older woman)? Or one time it's this one woman, and later there's a picture with two women? A mix of posed photos vs. photos in which the woman is doing something? WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:37, 23 July 2026 (UTC)

Almost everything you just suggested I would be in favour of. Different ages is good. Rotating once month through about 4 pics is good. The only thing i would hesitate on is more than one woman in a picture. But that's not a hill to die on for me. I can see others having problens with pictures of women "doing" something as the "doing" appear as though the action is the focus. A picture of a woman jogging, for example, i can see others saying "that's about jogging!" Or the same can be said for a woman in a nurse's uniform. Anyways, I'm not overly fussy. Any other editors with thoughts on this? Masterhatch (talk) 20:48, 23 July 2026 (UTC)

I've started a new section. My thinking is that if we can get a set of criteria, we might be able to find a few images that fit it, and make a proposal based on that. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:28, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

Inclusion of perimenopause in the "Puberty, menstruation and menopause" section

Perimenopause is not mentioned on the page Woman, despite the fact that it is a life stage that all women who reach midlife will eventually go through. I propose adding a brief mention of it for instance in the "Puberty, menstruation and menopause" section.

It would be helpful if you could also help to improve the draft for a perimenopause page. SupportYourLocalPlanet (talk) 09:23, 8 July 2026 (UTC)

It's not clear to me whether perimenopause is a "life stage" or transition between life stages. In one model, there are three life stages: childhood (~12 years), fertile years (~40 years), and old age (~30 years). In this way of thinking about it, puberty/adolescence and peri/menopause are just the transition points between those three, rather than separate stages on their own.

This may be a Lumpers and splitters problem, with different people naturally seeing their instinctive view to lump things together or split them apart as being the "obvious" or "natural" way to look at the diversity of human experience. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:25, 20 July 2026 (UTC)

"less muscles" ambiguity

"less muscles" could be interpreted as meaning fewer muscles (which is not true). How about "less muscle mass", or "smaller muscles"? WilbaAtWikipedia (talk) 05:08, 20 July 2026 (UTC)

Criteria for selection lead pictures

I think it'd be useful to have a list of criteria for selecting the lead picture(s). In particular, it's possible (and policy compliant) to change the lead image occasionally, so that it's not always the same photo/woman at the top. If we were to choose another picture(s), what advice would you give?

I'm asking a few questions below; please tell me whether it's something you'd prefer (all else being equal), something you'd dislike, or something that doesn't matter to you. If you want to link to an image as an example, add a colon (:) before the file name, like this: [[:File:Woman.jpg]], which makes a link like this: File:Woman.jpg.

WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:00, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

I have found a few relevant prior comments in Talk:Woman/sandbox/Archive 2#Criteria. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:16, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

@WhatamIdoing For one, the entire idea of this goes against MOS:NOETHNICGALLERIES. For two, there's already been a massive discussion to choose the lead image. Nobody has suggested the current image is bad or wrong or needs to change, or that the consensus of the prior discussion should be overborne. I suggest you remove this discussion before it wastes a bunch of everyone's time relitigating a settled matter. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 07:47, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

I agree. Changing something for the sake of changing something is not an ideal mindset in which to approach editing, and if it leads to conflict or protracted discussion it's just a waste of resources. Betty Logan (talk) 08:51, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

Agree with both CaptainEek and Betty Logan. Some1 (talk) 12:32, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

@CaptainEek, please tell me why you think that having exactly one (1) image in the lead of this article "goes against MOS:NOETHNICGALLERIES". Nothing in that guideline prohibits changing the one (1) image occasionally. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:21, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

Having a group of women we cycle through...means we have a gallery, even if they're not all on display at once. We have consensus for the current image, and it's a good one. Why waste a bunch of time to try to change it? CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 20:29, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

No, having one (1) image on the page, and then changing it to a different – but still just one – image is not a gallery. "Take out this one, and put in that one" does not result in a WP:GALLERY. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:51, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

Agree with the others that occasionally changing the image (or maybe displaying a random one on each visit) is not a good idea for the same reasons as a collage. From the Lead image RfC closure, perfection is not the goal. The image selection will always be contentious, because the notion of an "illustrative", "exemplary" or "average" woman will vary immensely (and also tend to perpetuate WP:systemic bias).

Unless the photo subject requests its removal, I don't think it is a productive use of time to revisit the RfC at this time. The RfC seemingly showed a general consensus that we should depict a present-day woman of average age, skin tone, and weight in not-especially extravagant clothing, and that the current one was the best of those proposed. That time may be better spent enhancing the gallery at Talk:Woman/sandbox with more high-quality images of a similar nature to the current. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (talk • stalk) 16:08, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

The advantage of occasionally rotating the image is that we don't have to find 'an "illustrative", "exemplary" or "average" woman'; instead, we can find a small set that includes what matters to most editors. If the one we're using today doesn't fit my idea, then maybe in a few months, there will be one that I like better. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:24, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

Since it was mentioned above that apparently some people are speaking abusively about the woman in the current photo (who is apparently just a random person), it might be better to use an illustration or painting of a historical figure, or perhaps someone who is already well-known anyway. I wouldn't want to change the picture otherwise, since that it just recapitulates the same issue. A group of women seems even harder to decide on unless an excellent pic happens to turn up, and rotating through several pictures just seems like unnecessary extra work which would probably fall by the wayside eventually anyway. Crossroads ^-talk- 16:48, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

Small groups are pretty easy to find, e.g., File:ChineseSisters.jpg or File:Campus Party (3923637103).jpg. See c:Category:Women by quantity. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:49, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

Apologies to WhatamIdoing - sorry but I have to agree: cycling the image from time to time is minimal upside, with a downside of being an ~endless source of argument. It would change my mind if any of these happened: • consensus turns against MOS:NOETHNICGALLERIES, allowing us to use a gallery or a variety of images throughout the article (unlikely, but it is 10 years old so who knows). • the subject of the photo asks it to be changed. • some new argument is presented to show that current image is inadequate for some reason. Leijurv (talk) 19:09, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

As others have said, a rotating roster or random selection certainly goes against the spirit of MOS:PEOPLEGALLERY, albeit not against a sufficiently narrow reading of the letter. There is really nothing wrong with the current lede image, other than the strange fact that the color of her shirt was changed. wound theology◈ 13:23, 25 July 2026 (UTC)

Image qualities

Should the lead image be a photo, or would you consider a drawing or painting? (In the past, we have sometimes used a famous painting or a drawing.) Is it important for the lead image be in color, or would a black-and-white image be acceptable? Is it important that the image be high-resolution? Should we prefer an image that has been recognized as high-quality, e.g., in c:Category:Featured pictures of women?

• I like the idea of preferring recognized content, but it's not important to me. (I'm replying to all of the questions, to make it easier for editors who use the Reply tool.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:15, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

Composition of the image

Is it important for the woman in the image to be facing straight ahead (towards the camera) or to the left (instead of looking to the right/off the screen)? Should it be a head shot only, or is a whole-body image acceptable? Is it important to show her face?

• I prefer not looking off the screen, but it's only medium importance to me. I think a full-body silhouette might be able to work, in which case it wouldn't be necessary to show her face. I'm sympathetic to the privacy concerns; the woman in the current photo has been the target of all kinds of abuse all over the internet, and even on this page. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:15, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

Activity

Should the woman be posing for the camera or doing something? If she's doing something, is it important to you that the activity be common (e.g., cooking, gardening, walking down the street) or that it be non-stereotypical (e.g., heavy machinery, professional sports)? Is it acceptable for her to be caring for a child? (This article has sometimes had photos of breastfeeding women.)

• If we were rotating between multiple images, then I'd like to have a minority be something other than a plain "smile for the camera" pose. I prefer ordinary-human activities, and I could accept mothering. I would prefer not to have hyper-feminine or sexualized activities (e.g., the pop star dancing on stage, boudoir photography). WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:15, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

Era

Is it important for the lead image to be a relatively modern woman? Would you consider a historical photo or a painting from previous centuries?

• I'd prefer modern women. If we were rotating between a set of four, I'd want them all to be modern women. If it were a large set, then I think maybe 5% (less than 10%) could be historical or a fine art painting. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:15, 24 July 2026 (UTC)
• A historical woman would largely negate the issue of people speaking abusively, since a dead person can't be harmed by it and their reputation is solidified. Crossroads ^-talk- 16:48, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

Age

Should we have a diversity in ages? For example, the current image shows a middle-aged woman, and maybe we'd prefer to only use pictures of women who are neither young nor older. Alternatively, we might want to show a younger woman and an older woman.

• I'd like to see more age diversity, but "neither young nor older" is the most important category. For a medium-sized group (about four or so images), I wouldn't want to see more than one young woman plus one older woman in the set. Additionally, there's a cultural thing, at least in the US, about elderly women becoming "invisible", and I think that including an elderly woman could be an educational moment, pushing back against the idea that women somehow stop being women as they age. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:15, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

Race and ethnicity

World population by continent

Should we have a representative variety of racial and ethnic characteristics? For example, the current image shows a woman in Southeast Asia, and maybe we'd like to alternate that with another racial or ethnic group. (For reference, the pie chart here shows the approximate population from each continent.)

• I'm glad that the current image is an Asian woman. For a medium-sized group, I'd probably prefer the current Asian woman, a South Asian woman, a Black African woman, and a white/European woman. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:15, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

Clothing

Should we only have images showing women in modern Western-style clothes, or are traditional/ethnic clothes acceptable? Should the clothes be everyday/work clothes, or would it be acceptable to have a woman (for example) in a wedding dress or a stage costume? Would you consider a woman wearing a military uniform? Religious-themed clothing? (A photo of Mother Teresa has previously been in this article.) A swimsuit?

• Mostly everyday clothes/appearance. I'd prefer at least 50% ordinary everyday Western-style clothes. After that, I don't care, except that if it's swimwear, it needs to have more to do with Competitive swimming than with trying to look sexy on the beach. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:15, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

Number of women

Should we have an image showing more than one woman? For example, we might be able to find a photo of two sisters, or an older woman with a younger woman, or two women of different races.

• I'd like to have an image with two or three women in it. It would be an interesting opportunity to show contrasts. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:26, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

Named or unknown

Should we have an image that shows a known person (e.g., a celebrity or a politician)? For example, this article has previously had a picture of Oprah Winfrey.

• I have mixed feelings about this. In the end, because of the privacy problems, I would slightly prefer that the images either be of fully famous women (e.g., this Featured Picture of Angela Merkel) or women whose names are unknown to us. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:26, 24 July 2026 (UTC)
• Anyone of this sort should lack serious controversies. If a politician, they should be from a near-center political party and have no significantly controversial views, lest we be taken as endorsing any divisive politics. Crossroads ^-talk- 16:48, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

Wealth

Is it important for the woman to look like she has any particular socioeconomic status? (For example, would you prefer an image that suggests that the woman is poorer, or middle-class, or wealthy?)

• More than half of women in the world live in poverty, so if we were to have multiple images, I'd prefer that at least one be a woman who at least does not look wealthy. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:26, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

Appearance

Is it important that the woman look recognizably feminine in appearance? (Sometimes it's hard to tell at a glance.) Is it important that she look conventionally pretty? Is it important that her appearance be more or less "average" or "natural" (e.g., no blue hair dye)?

• Per WP:PERTINENCE, I think that the women should look feminine, but they don't need to be beauty queens. I'd prefer a mostly natural appearance, but I don't mind ordinary amounts of makeup. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:26, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

Agreed. Crossroads ^-talk- 16:35, 24 July 2026 (UTC)