Talk:Warfalla

Other tribes

Great for starting this article. I have limited knowledge here, but assume we should have articles about the other tribes as well (or possibly a merged article about the [Tribes of Libya], if the main [Libya] article doesn't cover it already. Any thoughts? Ocaasi (talk) 21:19, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm headed for bed at the moment, and am working all weeked, so I'm not looking to do any "heavy lifting" right now. However, I had planned on starting at least two other articles. There's plenty of info out there about the tribes which inhabit Libya, since they basically are Libya... there's a rich treasure trove out there, just waiting to be mined. With the current situation in Libya this seems like an opportune time to collate as much of it as possible into a Wikipedia article, which is why I started this one. It's just a matter of getting everything together and writing it all. This particular article is obviously far from being a "good article", or anything like that, but at this point I'm not particularly concerned about such things. Feel free to add to the article though, or even start an article on one of the other tribes. I imagine that a whole series could be developed.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 04:45, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Population

I am from Libya; The number of population of Warfalla tribal group is very exaggerated, the accurate number is around 220,000. The number of population belonging to other Tripolitanian tribal groups: Tarhunah = 420,000 Misurata = 240,000 Zliten = 240,000 Gharyan = 215,000 az-Zawiyah = 145,000 Warshaffana = 132,000 Misillata = 110,000 Si'an = 80,000 'Ujailat = 64,000 Khums = 60,000 Zintan = 58,000 Zwara = 56,000 Tajura' = 46,000 Qadhadhifa = 31,000 Awlad Abu Saif = 28,000 Nawa'il = 27,000 Maqariha = 24,000 Awlad Suleiman = 20,000 Hasawina = 8,500

m0h.z0rg 15:41, 27 February 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by M0h.z0rg (talk • contribs)

The population of Warfalla and other tribes is based on data collected in the early 20th century (See di Agostini, Col. Enrico, Popolazione della Tripolitania, Tripoli, 1917) - the numbers of population of all the tribes have gone up in the last century but relative to each other, then the ratio among tribes remains unchanged. so by doing simple calculation we know that Warfalla is about 3.75% of population of Libya (5,817,433 in 2011). also, this is more accurate if consider the number of Warfalla in their hometown which is about 100,000; I don't know about their numbers in Cyrenaica, but even if we add them the number will not reach 1,000,000 or even 300,000. I know that Bedouin people are so proud about their tribes and tend to exaggerate their numbers and strength, so PLEASE don't change the estimated number of population unless if you have a trusted source (not just a false claims from the internet). m0h.z0rg 12:44, 17 July 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by M0h.z0rg (talk • contribs)

Basic Inaccuracies

I am a Werfelli from Libya.
I would like to point out some generally incorrect information:
Firstly, may I suggest using Italian General Rodolfo Graziani's books for your source of information as it is quite accurate of western Libya's history, tribes, and civil conflicts. http://openlibrary.org/authors/OL1087162A/Graziani_Rodolfo

Second, Werfella are at least 800,000 of Libya's whole population, it is the largest 'Tribe', but only 100-120k maximum reside in Bani Walid, the Werfella capitol.

Thirdly, it's not necessarily a tribe, but a 'tribal federation', a 'Clan' if you will, because not all the member tribes within it are related by blood (My tribe is not.)

Fourthly, never did the Werfella reside within the Misratah area, not now nor throughout history. Officially Bani Walid was listed under the Misratah district to purposely shame & anger Werfella, it is part of Gaddafi's punishment to the tribe for attempting a coup. Graziani and the Italians describe their territory only as the "Werfella region" - It is distinct and extends in a downwards Arc from bani walid, southward, then northwest overlapping with Zintan's territory.

Fifth, I'm not so sure the civil war in the Western mountains had any real relevance to Werfella aside from some political alliances. However, what is much more important (in terms of civil war) is Ramadan Swehli of Misrata's attack on Werfella territory and the subsequent battle with Abd ElNebi Bilkhair of Bani Walid. They were rivals throughout the Italian colonial period.

I wish I had time to edit this and sift through Graziani's Italian, but I need to get back to the news. Long live free Libya! :)

The following comment was written in the main page of the article (under "References"), where it shouldn't be. I transferred it to the Talk Page, where it's welcome. Ilyacadiz (talk) 22:35, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

In terms of scientific rules it is not right to let political preferences affect the scientific reality in reference to what has been written about the number of Warfalla tribe population. There has been no any scientific scenes (public or private) that is based on tribe category and much of what have been written is not more than rhetoric but there are unofficial stimulation say that Warfalla tribe is the biggest Arab tribe in Libya with more than 1 million people. Moreover, there has been no any credible historical evidence supporting the idea that Warfalla tribe is belonging to barbarian roots. If somebody prefers to say that Warfalla is loyalist to Gaddafi regime, it is true that Warfalla's belief and value system doesn't allow its individuals to act against their religious, ethical and morale principles. This doesn't mean that they were in a full harmonization with the regime. They were targeted by the regime for more than 18 years due to the 1993 attempt to overthrow the regime. Because of this Warfalla were put under Misrata's administration. It was not Warfalla, but Misrata were Gaddafi's pet. During Gaddafi's 40 years the Libyans have known well that Misrata took the biggest share of the country's developing plans. More than 80 factories were located in Misrata including the biggest steel and iron complex in North Africa. It was also home to three sea ports, an international airport, and an air-force academy. Misrata is the richest city in Libya and the people of Misrata are the richest between the Libyans. This is because of their closest relationships with the regime that allowed them to gain benefits and accumulated advantages. At least, one-fifth of the every government that took place between 1996 and 2012 were Misratian people. Most of the big companies in and outside the country, crucial embassies, security agencies in Libya were run by Misratian people.

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Major issues

This article is somewhat staggering to read, and it's disappointing to skim the edit history. Why is there no mention of the Hawwara confederation, a group detailed by Ibn Khaldun, and of which this group is a branch? Why has the hybrid Arab-Berber ethnicity that I find mentioned in most sources from a simple French journal search seemingly completely scrubbed? DiodotusNicator (talk) 19:58, 18 March 2026 (UTC)

@Skitash can you explain what changed in your understanding of this subject between this diff and this one? DiodotusNicator (talk) 20:02, 18 March 2026 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for asking. Regarding my 2023 edit, I wasn't able to verify the source that was supposed to support the claim that Warfalla are Arabized Berbers, since it lacked a page number and the linked page itself made no mention of the Warfalla or their ethnicity at all. I therefore left the statement in place (alongside the source supporting the Arab origin) and simply assumed it was accurate at the time. In 2025, I removed the inaccessible source for that reason, as I concluded that the entire claim would've been WP:OR. I also haven't been able to verify the source in the origin section stating that the Berbers of Warfalla had been Arabized by the sixteenth century. If you have access to RS that support these claims, please let me know. Skitash (talk) 22:17, 18 March 2026 (UTC)

As covered in the Hawwara article, the Warfalla are a branch of a Berber confederation. Were you unaware of this? DiodotusNicator (talk) 23:14, 18 March 2026 (UTC)

Correct, however that article makes a passing mention without further elaborating on the claim. As a tribal confederation made up of various diverse tribes, Warfalla do not constitute a "branch" of a single larger confederation. Skitash (talk) 23:25, 18 March 2026 (UTC)

I'm confused. You begin your response with "Correct"; are you disagreeing on the semantics? Do you need to me to elaborate on what I meant by "branch"? DiodotusNicator (talk) 23:32, 18 March 2026 (UTC)

In other words, it's not as clear-cut or absolute as that, which is why it's inaccurate to suggest that Warfalla are entirely and strictly just a branch of Hawwara. Skitash (talk) 23:38, 18 March 2026 (UTC)

I wasn't attempting to suggest that, but I'm not interested in semantics here. Can I take this reponse to mean that you are/were, in fact, aware that the Warfalla are not strictly Arab? Since you have asked for sources:

• Here is Ibn Khaldun describing the common descent of the Hawwara and the Warfalla (cited due to his prominence as a primary source in the relevant secondary scholarship)
• Here is the UN using "Arab-Berber Warfalla"

DiodotusNicator (talk) 23:56, 18 March 2026 (UTC)

You're welcome to cite those in the article. As the WP:LEDE is supposed to summarize the content of the body, you would need to expand on those claims in the main text rather than introducing them directly into the lede based solely on brief passing mentions like the UN article. Skitash (talk) 00:02, 19 March 2026 (UTC)

In a prior response, you stated "the linked page made no mention of the Warfalla or their ethnicity at all." This is not true; the linked page plainly references the Warfalla. I think I'll simply revert your unwarranted erasure of the -Berber part of Arab-Berber. DiodotusNicator (talk) 00:37, 19 March 2026 (UTC)

Where exactly in that source does it state Warfalla are Arabized Berbers? Moreover, could you provide the precise quote supporting "By the sixteenth century, the Arab migrations to the Maghreb and subsequent intermarriage with indigenous populations had largely Arabized the region, giving rise to mixed Arab-Berber tribes that included the Warfalla"? Otherwise it's WP:OR and I'll need to remove it pending better sourcing per WP:BURDEN. Skitash (talk) 00:50, 19 March 2026 (UTC)

If you think the article is improved by presenting the Warfalla as purely Arab, go ahead and revert.

As for your transparent wikilawyering:

• The relevant material is on page 46 of the Making of Modern Libya.
• The linked page, which you previously claimed "made no mention of the Warfalla or their ethnicity at all," describes the Berber descent of the Hawwara, and states that the Warfalla are a sub-clan of a clan within the Hawwara.

DiodotusNicator (talk) 01:21, 19 March 2026 (UTC)

Assuming bad faith and persistently casting WP:ASPERSIONS is not helpful at all. You should definitely familiarize yourself with WP:AGF.

1. Page 46 does not support your claim at all. It mentions Warfalla once in passing, and that is to note their migration patterns ("between the Jabal, the Gibla, and the oases of Fezzan to collect dates"). This fails WP:V.

2. A book by Al-Ya'qubi from the 9th century predates the Banu Hilal migrations, so linking it directly to today's Warfalla seems like WP:SYNTH. The source doesn't even describe them as Arabized or Berber directly, but vaguely categorizes them as a Hawwara clan (when that's objectively not the case, especially today). Skitash (talk) 01:39, 19 March 2026 (UTC)

1. To be clear, is your contention here that it's unverifiable from the source whether or not the Warfalla were in the Maghreb at this time, or whether or not they have some Arabized Berber descent? I find it hard to believe you would need the writer to say "Btw, the Warfalla specifically are one of the tribes I'm talking about."

2. Here, you seem to be working backward from your opposition to covering Arabized Berber descent. The citation is supporting "descent from Hawwara" and directly describes descent from Hawwara, how could this possibly be WP:SYNTH?

Given the arguments you've made and this diff, I don't have to assume anything to point out that your primary editorial goal on this page seems to be the removal of material related to Berber descent in order to portray the Warfalla as purely Arab. DiodotusNicator (talk) 01:54, 19 March 2026 (UTC)

Hi, I was gonna start a discussion because of this edit. it seems that there is already a discussion taking place. @DiodotusNicator restored some old additions and is accusing another editor of "portraying Warfalla as purely Arab". DiodotusNicator, have you verified these sources before restoring them? Instead of casting aspersions and accusing editors of bad faith, you should have taken a look at these sources. Ibn Khaldun is not a secondary source, neither is al-Ya'qubi. What is the goal of restoring non-secondary sources? They are not considered to be reliable sources (See WP:RS and WP:SCHOLAR, WP:VERIFIABILITY) Please replace these sources with secondary reliable sources or self-revert your Warfalla's edit. Best wishes. R3YBOl (🌲) 12:46, 19 March 2026 (UTC)

It is straightforwardly not an "accusation" if the diff just shows what I've described, which is the full scrubbing of anything related to Berber descent in a single edit. It is an observation of the factual effect on this article. DiodotusNicator (talk) 23:41, 19 March 2026 (UTC)

I also find it entertaining that you're labelling Ibn Khaldun a primary source on this subject; as far as I'm aware he wrote his own secondary synthesis on the history of the Berbers at least a few centuries after the process he describes. DiodotusNicator (talk) 23:48, 19 March 2026 (UTC)

1. Let me get this straight: you're defending the sentence "mixed Arab-Berber tribes that included the Warfalla" from 16th-century intermarriage... based on a source that mentions Warfalla only once, in a completely unrelated passing list about migration/traversal of an area? The text must be directly supported by the source, not inferred from a separate unrelated mention. That is textbook WP:OR: "Even with well-sourced material, if one uses it out of context, or to state or imply a conclusion not directly and explicitly supported by the source, one is engaging in original research."

2. Medieval Islamic sources are clearly not reliable here, and what they're describing are very much not the same Warfalla as today. Furthermore, Al-Ya'qubi and Ibn Khaldun are indeed both primary sources and shouldn't be cited. Linking a pre-Hilalian reference directly to today's Warfalla and concluding they're Arabized Berbers because an ancient source lists them as Hawwara branch is WP:SYNTH. Skitash (talk) 17:53, 19 March 2026 (UTC)

1. "Intermarriage succeeded in Arabizing the whole Maghrib by the time of the Turkish conquest in 1550. By the sixteenth century most of the fertile land was owned by mixed Arab-Berber tribes, like the Mahamid and Awlad Sulayman." @Skitash So your contention is that the Warfalla do not fall under "mixed Arab-Berber tribes"? Please include a direct yes/no in any response.

2. You're telling me Ibn Khaldun is "clearly not reliable here"? Can you also explain to me then, why exactly is he one of the most cited scholars of all time by scholars writing on Medieval Islamic/MENA history? Moreover, your point that he is a primary source is simply wrong; Ibn Khaldun's History of the Berbers is definitionally not a primary source. He is writing a book centuries after the events described, compiling oral traditions and synthesizing earlier sources. See WP:USEPRIMARY for a refresher on what is or isn't a primary source. DiodotusNicator (talk) 02:25, 20 March 2026 (UTC)

Given that the dispute above is centered on the contention that labelling the Warfalla as having Arabized Berber descent is SYNTHetic and unwarranted, I will dump some sources:

1. Jamestown Foundation via UNHCR: "In the case of Libya's largest tribe, the Arab-Berber Warfalla,"
2. The Brill Encyclopedia of Islam: "Hawwāra (also Huwwāra; now Howwāra or Hewwāra), name of a Berber people...The tribes of the Hawwāra and other Berber tribes related to them were very numerous. The principal ones [include]...the Warfalla (Warfal)". Before this is decried as SYNTH, the source is specifically labelling the Warfalla as one of the "other Berber tribes related to [the Hawwara]."
3. l'Encyclopédie berbère on the Hawwara, for more information on the cite above: "Huwwâra, Houuara, Houara, Hawwâra: Vocable générique qui désignait un ensemble (peut-être confédéral) de populations situées avant l’arrivée des Arabes, de la Tripolitaine au Fezzan en Libye." (A generic term designating a group (perhaps confederal) of populations located, before the arrival of the Arabs, from Tripolitania to the Fezzan in Libya.)
4. US Institute of Peace: "Elsewhere, Arab Bedouin clans banded with non-Arab clans for protection and reinforced social pacts through marriage. In rural areas, this bonding process sometimes led to the group becoming a “tribe”—the Warfalla, for example." - Note that this is the exact process being directly described in the Making of Modern Libya cite that is being labelled SYNTH above.

And I will once again ask that anyone who feels this article would be improved by reverting to a version in which all mention of this was scrubbed: please go ahead and revert my edits without delay. DiodotusNicator (talk) 00:22, 20 March 2026 (UTC)