Talk:Tsez language

Tables

I could need a little help with the tables, here. I don't know much enough to know how to make them look as neat as on other language pages. Especially the phoneme table could need some clean-up. Any help? — N-true 17:40, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Georgian name

Why is this georgian name here? Tsez is not spoken in Georgia.

I know, I know, it's just because the language is also called "Dido", which is derived from its Georgian name. — N-true 11:01, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Split

This is an excellent article, and the coverage of morphology and syntax is amazing. The article is also 59 kilobytes long. Would anyone have a problem if the morphology and syntax sections were split out into a Tsez grammar article? Obviously a summary of the grammar would remain in this article. –jonsafari 06:17, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

In fact I was happy to have everything on one single page instead of on many pages in a folder. I *personally* would prefer to let it intact... but I guess I'm not the one to decide. :/ — N-true 14:11, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Photos of a Tsez village

I got these pictures of the town Sagada, maybe I can later try to get the authorization to upload them on Wikipedia and to use them in this article... Sagada (Russian: Сагада, Tsez: Сокьо) is a small village where the Tsez language is spoken. See the photos here and there. — N-true 21:32, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

GA Fail

Was anyone aware this was up for GA? Anyway

• Short one sentence paragraphs, even one sentence sections
• Four inline references throughout, needs more
• it's written more like a guide than encyclopedic material, full of lists and tables
• Theres no article on the 'Tsez' people which proves they are not notable.
• Choppy sentences with no flow

M3tal H3ad 05:17, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

The fricative row of the phonology table (/s/ and /s/ for both лъ and с?)

Regarding this edit: I agree that most of the changes Strabismus [the reverted editor] made were indeed unnecessary, but I don't really understand why you've also reverted the "/s/ → /ɬ/" substitution in the lateral column.

While I've never heard about this language before and I'm also not an expert o phonetics, it seems a bit odd to me that

1. now the table uses the same symbol for two separate phonemes, the (voiceless) "dental" and the lateral fricative without any modifying diactrics (whatsoever); in spite of the fact that
2. the voiceless alveolar lateral fricative has a "dedicated" symbol in IPA, namely /ɬ/ and even if the lateral fricative in Tsez is not alveolar or not voiceless it would be more appropriate to use /ɬ/ or /ɮ/ [or another "lateral" symbol" eg. like l or ɭ] to represent it, with modifying diacritics if they are needed.

--Adolar von Csobánka (Talk) 18:45, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

You're right, I must've missed that, changed the phoneme back to /ɬ/ now. Thanks! — N-true 18:57, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

about Souther Daghestanian Tsezes

In southern Daghestan- Lesgis, non Tsez people. Und dabei, die Tsezen sind unteilbare Teil der Awaren. warum hier steht nicht dass die Tsesen Awaren sind? Die Tsezen leben nicht in Sueddagestan. Es ist Nonsens. Die Awaren und Tsesen wohnen in West-Dagestan

Im Text steht, dass die Tsesen in der Tsunt'a-Region im südlichen und westlichen Dagestan leben, diese Information ist Korrekt, es ist südliches Dagestan. Die Tsesen werden oft mit zu den Awaren gezählt. Das ist nicht falsch, aber sie können (und sollten) als eigenes Volk betrachtet werden. Ihre Sprache ist ja auch eine andere. — N-true 13:29, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Antiavarian separatist propaganda

user N-True wrote: Fluency of Avar is usually higher among men than women, and the younger people tend to be more fluent in Russian than in Tsez, which is probably due to the lack of education in and about the language. Tsez is not taught in school and instead Avar is taught for the first five years, and Russian afterwards. The vocabulary shows many traces of influences of Avar, Georgian, Arabic and Russian, mainly through loanwords and, in the case of Russian, even in grammar and style. These factors will eventually lead to the decline of use of the Tsez language, as it is more and more replaced by Avar and Russian, partly due to loss of traditional culture among the people and the adoption of a Western clothing, technology and architecture This is antiavarian separatist propaganda. Territory of Tsezes is AVARIAN territory and Tsezian Folk is the Part of Caucasian Avars -- User:87.117.157.57

No, it's scientific facts. Sources are given. The Tsez people have no intention of seperation from the Avars – in census, they sometimes even count themselves as Avars. The Tsez are of course closely related to the Avars. — N-true 13:26, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Ergative and absolutive

The second paragraph of Tsez language#Case is wrong: the subject of an intransitive verb and the object of a transitive one are in the absolutive case, and the subject of a transitive verb is in the ergative case. (Sorry for not just fixing this myself, but I'm not sure exactly which part is wrong; I just know that, taken together, the parts cannot all be true.) —Ruakh_TALK 06:04, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Verb paradigm strangeness

The article says that there are "five tense-aspect forms in the indicative mood", but the listed forms don't seem to include aspect distinctions. "Past unwitnessed" and "past witnessed" would seem to be an evidential distinction, and "future definite"/"future indefinite" is unclear but seems to be either a tense or mood distinction. The non-finite forms, on the other hand, do apparently show aspect, such as the resultative and terminative. Are those finite forms normally referred to as aspects? — Gwalla | Talk 04:28, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Yep, seems strange. Smells like tense and evidentiality for both past and future, but it is not clear for the future. "Tense-aspect" above is likely due to the conception of seeing those two as one domain. I'll try to fix it on the basis of the info already provided. G Purevdorj (talk) 08:00, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

I admit, I haven't been not too sure about the correct terminology; I believe I've taken the names from Comrie's works. You're right with evidentiality of course. The two futur forms I've only come across in texts used for the 1^st ("definite") and 2^nd person ("indefinite"), but I don't know for sure if they can be used for other persons as well. — N-true (talk) 15:41, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Latin characters in Cyrillic?

The Cyrillic row of the consonants section has "тI кI цI лI чI хI гI" as combinations of the Cyrillic letters "т к ц л ч х г" plus LATIN CAPITAL LETTER I (Unicode: U+0049). I would like to suggest that the latter be changed to CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER BYELORUSSIAN-UKRAINIAN I (U+0406) yielding the combinations "тІ кІ цІ лІ чІ хІ гІ".
Except for rare cases (notably IPA, in which Greek "β θ λ χ" may be used in a script that is defined as Latin) mixing writing systems within a single word cannot be recommended. In the case of Tsez orthography, though Latin "I" and Cyrillic "І" are visually identical in virtually all fonts, their confusion will inevitably lead to unwanted search results; besides, if different fonts for Latin and Cyrillic are set in your browser (or text processor, or any other application) the visual output will look strange too. For these (and other) reasons the recommendations of the Unicode Consortium should be followed whenever possible. LiliCharlie (talk) 04:17, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Oops, I have just remarked another instance of this in the Cyrillic row of the vowels section: "ā" (U+0101 LATIN SMALL LETTER A WITH MACRON) should be replaced by "а̄" (U+0430 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER A + U+0304 COMBINING MACRON). LiliCharlie (talk) 04:17, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Secondary Articulations

The phonology section mentions that consonants can be labialized and pharyngealized. Is this contrastive or allophonic? If it is contrastive, the labialized and pharyngealized forms should be added to the table. Auvon (talk) 17:06, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

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Sample text section

The current Sample section consists of separate blocks of text under their own headers. I'd like to replace this with template:verse translation to format it in a more accessible, readable, and portable manner. Here's what I've got:

Kʼetʼus Hunar
Zewnoƛax zewčʼeyƛax bˤeƛon bocʼin zirun qayno. Sidaquł šigoħno sadaqorno boyno ħukmu: yaqułtow begira bocʼi ħonƛʼār miƛʼeł xizāz xizyo rišʷa yoł. Bˤeƛā begirno qay łˤāł xizāz, bocʼin zirun regirno ħonƛʼār miƛʼeł xizāz. Ɣudod, žedi raynosi beƛʼez reqenyoxor, ziru boqno uhi-ehƛada buq boƛāxzāzarno boqno. Zirus uhi-ehi teqxoy, ɣʷaybi kʼoƛin elār, bocʼi buq bātuzāzarno boqno bikʼin reqenyoƛer, besurno ƛʼarayaw miƛʼi. Miƛʼin bisno bocʼin zirun xizor rutin qʼayƛʼār. Rizirno cʼidoƛʼor ƛoħon begirno łāƛʼor qay. Kikxogon zewno bočʼikʼxo kʼetʼu.

Qayir zewāčʼey rikʷayxo; nešuruxay nełor rikʷayxo zewčʼey. Kʼetʼu, ełor baynosi qay, boqno kʼekʼbikʼa. Kʼekʼbikʼni teqnosi, qay łikin rixerčʼeytow boxin xizor. Bˤeƛā esirno: "Šidā boxā rayirčʼey łin?" Elo didiyƛa žekʼu yoł-ƛin eƛin qayā. Aħugon rikʼin łāxor zirun qayno. Žedi raynosi kikxor žedā esirno kʼetuq: "Mi šebi?" Di žekʼu yoł-ƛin eƛin kʼetʼā. Šebi že debez ħiroƛʼ esirxo zirā. Tupi ƛin eƛix kʼetʼā. Dicce rˤuƛʼno zirun qayno, amma biyxoy kʼetʼu yāłru, xizyo łˤonon zenzi rikʼin raħira reƛ. Bˤeƛo buqełno bičin ažoz kʼodrexāzay, rołikʼno aħyabin kecno, kʼetʼu tataniłxo zewno cʼidox.

Bˤeƛā kʼekʼrikʼerxo zewno aħyabi. Že rikʷayxoy, kʼetʼuz rokʼƛʼor rayno, že elo aw ƛin, hudu betʼtʼun kʼoƛin elor. Dicce bˤuƛʼzāq bˤeƛqo regin ixiytʼatow qˤaƛubin, boxin ciqxār. Bocʼezno qayizno, ziruzno rokʼƛʼor rayno baysi bāsu ixiytow ħaywan šebin, nełoq že riqičʼey kʼiriłno roxin. Cʼikʼiy reƛ miƛes ƛexun kʼetʼur. ʕoƛiran ɣˤudeł kʼetʼu bišno, racʼno baɣʷace dawla bocʼesno zirusno.

Translation:

The Cat's Feat
Once upon a time there were a pig, a wolf, a fox and a hare. One day they gathered together and decided that today they would send the wolf into the mountains for a sheep and they would eat. The pig sent the hare for water and sent the wolf and the fox into the mountain for a ram. At night, when they came to the flock of sheep, the fox began to moan from the eastern side. Since they heard the fox's moaning, the dogs ran in that direction and the wolf went towards the flock from the west and found a fat ram. Having taken the ram, the wolf and the fox returned to the camp. They put the pan on the fire and sent the hare for water. At the spring the cat was freezing.

The hare couldn't see; at night the hare couldn't see. When the hare arrived there, the cat began to move. When he heard the movement, the hare ran back without taking any water. The pig asked: "Why did you run away without bringing water?" The hare said that there was some man there. Again the fox and the hare went to the water. When they came to the spring, they asked the cat: "What are you?" — "I am a man", said the cat. "What is that on your shoulder?", asks the fox. "A rifle", says the cat. The fox and the hare were very frightened, but since they knew it was a cat, afterwards the three of them went together to cook meat. The pig hid behind a bunch of trees and, pushing out its ears, slept, and the cat was warming itself by the fire.

The pig was moving its ears. Since the cat saw it, it thought it was a mouse and in a rush jumped there. The pig was very frightened and, emitting loud shouts, ran away to the forest. The wolf, the hare and the fox thought that a great animal or something was coming and, one running faster than the other, they ran away. All the ram's meat was left to the cat. For seven days the cat ate, ate until it was full the spoils of the wolf and the fox.

I've also taken the liberty of adding paragraph breaks; I don't know if that's appropriate for the source material or not. Any objections to implementing this? pauli133 (talk) 15:23, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Transliteration

Wouldn't цезйас мец be transliterated as tsezyas mets? TwinCaves174 (talk) 16:04, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Sixty-Four Cases?

I keep reading (on Wikipedia, in books such as The Art of Language Invention, and elsewhere) that Tsez has sixty-four noun cases. Is this true? The article doesn't mention it.

Thanks,

Me

Language Boi (talk) 21:56, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

monotransitive verb

A monotransitive verb takes "two arguments" — not sure I understand. Googling it I get: "It is a type of transitive verb that requires only one direct object to complete its meaning, meaning the action of the verb is directed towards a single recipient." Stjohn1970 (talk) 13:14, 3 April 2025 (UTC)