Talk:Telecommunications Research Establishment

Untitled

Weren't Martin Ryle and Bernard Lovell also at TRE???Linuxlad 16:16, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

Staff and their contributions.

If I may, I'd like to add my Great Uncle, Joe Airey, to the list of staff. As Joseph Enoch Airey, he was awarded the MBE on 15th June 1945 for his services. I want to put the detail etc here first so that you are comfortable with what I am adding ad the evidence that will follow. He was heavily involved with the various moves as Senior Technical Officer and some books quote him as being the one instructed in various aspects of the sites. I will update once you agree. Marksairey (talk) 19:50, 14 June 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marksairey (talk • contribs) 19:49, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Dates

According to e.g. Grace's Guide, TRE was named as such in Nov. 1940. If so, some of the material here is misplaced. Or maybe the page should be about the organisations from BRS to TRE?--Djmarsay (talk) 14:12, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

According to The Battle Of The Beams by Greg Goebel:

Ironically, the success of BITING (Feb 1942) made the brass worry that the Germans might pull the same stunt on the TRE at Swanage, and so intelligence about German paratroops across the Channel quickly forced the mad relocation of the TRE to Malvern.

Please can someone verify which is correct because it is at odds with this page which says that TRE was in Malvern from 1940 -- Philip Baird Shearer 11:18, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It does seem the move to Malvern was March 1942, and May 1940 was the move to Worth Matravers. There's a good-looking Oral History at and another good history by someone who perhaps was there at the time . Rwendland 11:12, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It is not clear to me if TRE existed before Worth Matravers. Is this wording correct:

TRE was set up in Worth Matravers, which is four miles to the west of Swanage, in May 1940, and it moved to Malvern in August 1942 because of the fears that the Germans might launch their own Biting like commando raid against it if it remaind by the coast.

--Philip Baird Shearer 22:55, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Another take names and moves is at , which says the TRE name was established November 1940 ~6 months after the move to Worth Matravers, and the move to Malvern was around May 1942:

The Telecommunications Research Establishment

The development of radar in the UK was initiated by the Tizard Committee on Air Defence in 1935. In 1935 the first experimental radar transmitter was erected at Orfordness on the East Anglia coast, east of Ipswich. In 1936 the small research group moved to nearby Bawdsey Manor, and it became known as BRS (Bawdsey Research Station). This was the central research group for RAF applications of radar, expanding over the years, changing its name three times and changing its location three times. At the start of the war, in September 1939, it moved to Dundee on the east coast of Scotland. In May 1940 it moved to Worth Matravers near Swanage, Dorset, on the south coast. Around May 1942 it moved to Malvern, near Worcester in the West Midlands, where it took over Malvern College. On the move to Dundee its name was changed to AMRE (Air Ministry Research Establishment), then it became MAPRE (Ministry of Aircraft Production Research Establishment), and finally in November 1940 it became TRE (Telecommunications Research Establishment).

The Air Defence Research and Development Establishment, ADRDE, also moved to Malvern, and TRE and ADRDE (renamed Radar Research and Development Establishment in 1944) were amalgamated in 1953 to form the Radar Research Establishment, RRE, renamed the Royal Radar Establishment in 1957.

Rwendland 01:28, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Pictures

We could perhaps take one of the Crown Copyright photos from there "TRE Malvern Huts in winter 1942-3"; Crown Copyright expires 50 years after first publication (unknown), so it might be reasonable to assume 1942 MOD photos are copyright expired. Rwendland 11:12, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Computers

NB Tom Kilburn was also at TRE, and it seems TRE funded some the early computer devleopment at Manchester University (eg Baby which ran the first stored-program ever) - Rwendland 11:12, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

TRE Equipment reconstructions

There's a site with some excellent restorations and reconstructions (including display simulations) of the airborne radar equipment used by the RAF in WW II here: - scroll down to the end of the page for the AI and other equipment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.40.250.124 (talk) 14:32, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Other work

According to a personal web page here using information from the papers of someone who used to work at TRE, they also did pioneering work on proton accelerators: , including work on a 4MeV pilot one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.112.46.109 (talk) 18:55, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Did they do work on IFF aka 'secondary radar'?--Djmarsay (talk) 22:11, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Overlap with article about Royal Radar Establishment

I am editing the RRE WP article from the article about R.A.Smith in Biographical Memoirs of Fellows of the Royal Society (BMFRS). It is the richest source of information about people who worked at TRE/RRE that I have found, but my access to relevant material is limited. I am putting all the information from BMFRS into the RRE article, because it was RRE when I was there and, of greater importance, during the years that the organization was known as TRE, it was a principal developer of RADAR and the principle progenitor of solid state science in Great Britain. Splitting the history of the solid state work between what was done when the organization was called TRE, RRE (for Radar Research Establishment), RRE (for Royal Radar Establishment) and so on would be quite arbitrary and extremely difficult, trying to remember what happened before and after the name change. Likewise, research continued on radar. Unless concensus is otherwise, I will proceed with the material from BMFRS then copy from here. Michael P. Barnett (talk) 02:01, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Background to move from Swanage to Malvern

Reginald Jones' book on British scientific intelligence in World War IIgives a 10-page account of the background to the move. In the second week of February, 1942, the German battleships Scharnhorst and Gneisenau escaped from Brest in the Channel Dash, undetected until they were well into the English Channel, because German ground forces had gradually increased the jamming of British radar over a period of weeks. The British command had not realized this was happening. In the aftermath, Lord Mountbatten and Winston Churchill approved plans for a raid on the German radar station at Bruneval, near Le Havre. The landing party included D. H. Priest, of TRE. The Bruneval raid (also called the Biting raid) captured a German Wurzburg radar system and a radar operator. These were taken to TRE. During the weeks that followed, the British authorities became concerned that the Germans would retaliate in kind. When intelligence reported the arrival of a German paratroop battalion across the Channel, the staff of TRE pulled out of the Swanage site in a period of hours.

References

Why this did not go directly into Article

I wrote this precis of Chapter 27 of Jones' book in language and style that I think would be acceptable in the real world. However, according to an opinion voiced in my efforts to edit the article about Charles Coulson, the subtraction of the starting page numbers of Chapters 27 and 28it violates WP:NOR. Converting the time slot of the Channel Dash from February 12/13th to the second week of February is unacceptable synthesis in the same set of rulings. And I assume I violated a wiki:loose language rule by describing an airborne attack as retaliation in kind for an attack by sea. The precis probably transgresses several other wiki-legalities that have blocked my contributions to other articles, whilst leaving scores of articles that I consider total garbage unscathed. I am putting it here in case anyone is interested in wiki-conforming it. I would be interested in what might happen if an established wiki-editor put it in as is. Michael P. Barnett (talk) 02:00, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Update Feb. 4th

I took a chance and put in the material from Reginald Jones book.

Also rearranged a bit for consistency.

The name of the army lab was Radar Research and Development Establishment. See Nature 164, 740-741 (29 October 1949) "Radar Research and Development Establishment, Malvern": "The Radar Research and Development Establishment of the Ministry of Supply held a series of open days at Malvern during the period September 21-23, thus giving the public its first chance of seeing the work of this well-known Establishment."

I am not sure of Reg Jones title during war. I think I was told it was Director of Scientific Intelligence, which suggests directorial responsibility, which advisor to MI6 does not -- I only looked at his book enough to extract piece about TRE move.

The Cotswold Archaeology site http://web.archive.org/web/20071015140205/http://cotswoldarch.org.uk/projects05_06/malvern.htm describes early background of working with Air Ministry and getting local "environmental impact" study, which may be why Malvern was picked as locale for TRE to move too.

Any chance of this getting merged into RRE article? Michael P. Barnett (talk) 01:48, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Update Feb. 7

In view of negative reaction to suggestion of merger I just copied info about people in RRE article who were in lab when it was called TRE. Hope someone will check. More info needs to be added to some of the names. Michael P. Barnett (talk) 22:23, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

I put in more detail about actual projects and people. Split work into navigation, jamming, radar and IRr. But I did this primarily from WP articles about the people -- it is not my field. Will clean up hyperlinks and complete the info by reference to people for whom I have not copied details into list of Notables. But above all, hope it is checked by a radio / radar expert.

Michael P. Barnett (talk) 02:28, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Made a few more additions under "other work" and for Bowen, Dummer that need checking. Michael P. Barnett (talk) 21:24, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Updates Feb. 10

The article about Joan Curran states she invented Chaff (also called Window). The obituary of Cockburn states he invented Window. I have to leave as is now. 71.225.48.166 (talk) 12:44, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Forgot to log in. Made slight changes to wording that I hope avoid contradiction here. Added paragraph about Rowe -- I think he deserves it. Removed paragraph about Sciama -- unless he was at TRE before he got his Ph.D. seems unlikely, but Royal Society obit should clarify.

If I should apologize about intemperate remarks on wiki-legalists on Feb 4th I do so -- I was exasperated. Hope I have not discouraged substantive criticisms -- I think present style needs streamlining, and am concerned about disparate length of comments on different people. Michael P. Barnett (talk) 14:48, 10 February 2011 (UTC) Michael P. Barnett (talk) 14:48, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Put in Ryle, took out Francis Smith, absent info readily available he was at TRE -- will check RS obits when possible.

Now have at least minimal info for everyone listed. But who has been left out? Michael P. Barnett (talk) 18:28, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

I have added a few links to the personnel section at the bottom and corrected the odd typo. Thanks for your efforts BTW, the work of TRE was so significant and far-ranging that the article as it was before was a bit skimpy - no offence to previous editors, as a lot of TREs and RREs work was still secret until quite recently. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.112.82.213 (talk) 21:40, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Here's an interesting web source that someone editing the article may find useful: — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.7.147.13 (talk) 10:14, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

A 1945 Flight article on radar with some names of people involved here: — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.7.147.13 (talk) 20:57, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

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Dundee - rector does not make sense

The claim that "Watson-Watt planned to move the teams to a safer location in the event of war, and approached the rector of his alma mater, University College at Dundee" and that "the rector was only dimly aware of the earlier conversation" makes no sense. University College, Dundee (its correct title) was at this time part of the University of St Andrews and did not have its own Rector, but was covered by the Rector of the University of St Andrews who at the time would be David Munro. However the Rector had no say in the day to day running of the University as a whole let alone University College a fact Watson-Watt would have been aware of. It would be more likely he approached either the Principal of the University James Irvine or the acting Principal of University College Angus Robertson Fulton. The latter would have been a junior staff member in Watson-Watt's day so they would have known each other. Complicating matters Irvine had been acting Principal of the College as well as the University as whole until early 1939. Whatever the case the story as outlined here is implausible. Dunarc (talk) 16:06, 15 March 2024 (UTC) Amended by Dunarc (talk) 23:34, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Ways of Working

Ian Goult's book (see Bibliography) has this quote as part of the front-work:

"I was fortunate in having considerable dealings in 1938-40 with the 'Boffins' (as the Royal Air Force affectionately dubbed the scientists) and will never forget the invigorating atmosphere that pervaded Bawdsey and later, Worth Matravers. Here was brilliant individualism harnessed to make a great team without loss of individual freedom and initiative .... . It is perhaps because this type of teamwork is of the very essence of the Royal Air Force that such happy relations were established between the Service and our friends and partners, the Boffins ... Such a team spirit might well never have been created had it not been for men like Rowe and Tizard who could and did interpret the user to the scientist and the scientist to the user. They, and men like them, set a pattern which is not only vital for our future security, but may well, I suggest, be vital for the well-being of the world. Marshall of the RAF Lord Tedder, 1948"

Does anyone know the origin of this quote? It seems to add something significant that is otherwise missing on Wikipedia and the Internet more broadly.

This quote could be inserted in part or in full at the end of the initial section under 'history'. This could be complemented by this from the 'Boffin' page:

Llewellyn, A.I. "A.P.Rowe and his 'Sunday Soviets'". Centre for The History of Defence Electronics. Bournemouth University, Oral History Unit. Retrieved 4 November 2020. "Whilst at Worth in 1940, he conceived the idea of inviting senior military personnel to visit TRE on Sundays to meet with the rest of the research engineers and scientists working in the team. These gatherings were very informal and even the most junior staff were encouraged to contribute their ideas. If an idea was put forward that had merit, it could be adopted there and then because all the main decision-makers would be there. Such informality (and trust) at such a powerful level was unprecedented. A great sense of purpose was thus built up between the researchers and the military decision-makers."

[The boldening is mine, not necessarily to be in final edit.]

With these changes the boffin page could then be tidied up (I could do it) by making reference here. This would then provide a good overview of the unusual 'ways of working' that (pace Tedder) could usefully be adopted now.

Suggestions? Djmarsay (talk) 06:58, 30 June 2026 (UTC)