Talk:Tanzimat

Grammar in French during Ottoman times

• Strauss, Johann (2010). "A Constitution for a Multilingual Empire: Translations of the Kanun-ı Esasi and Other Official Texts into Minority Languages". In Herzog, Christoph; Malek Sharif (eds.). The First Ottoman Experiment in Democracy. Wurzburg: Orient-Institut Istanbul. p. 21-51. (info page on book at Martin Luther University) // CITED: p. 39 (PDF p. 41/338).

...said that, during Ottoman times, the grammar usage "Le Tanzimat" (instead of "Les Tanzimat") was common. WhisperToMe (talk) 08:56, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

On citations

We do not need three citations for a part of a single paragraph and no citations for whole sections. See WP:OVERCITE and WP:CITE. —¿philoserf? (talk) 18:17, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

The Ottomans decriminalized homosexuality?

Please read this article.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32069182/

In 1858 they used a French Penal Code which spoke of the punishment for public homosexuality. This can be interpreted as homosexual relation being revealed in public which isn't that controversial as adultery is also spoken of as being punishable if revealed in public (due to the requirement that 4 people needed) in Islamic law. That is not to say Ottoman society would not punish it it came out in public. I would rephrase the use of 'decriminalizing homosexuality' because homosexual were liable to prosection if found proven to have done so (a burden of proof which admittedly was very difficult) Asimz123 (talk) 15:40, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

https://twitter.com/IbneKhan01/status/1643289630433763333/photo/1 (This was the conclusion if you cannot access the article). Notworthy is that Suleyman's qanun only imposed fines for public/private homosexuality whereas in 1858 heavier punishments (imprisonment for three months) were imposed. When you compare this seems to indicate that the Tanzimat reforms were heavier for homosexuals which is in line with Western trajectory which theTanzimat sought to emulate.

The fact that punishments on homosexuals were harsher in the tanzimat period means we need to get rid of this idea that the Ottomans decriminzalized homsoexuality as it is misleading (or at least add qualification that no mention of private homosexuality referenced and it would be helpful to add penalties are harsher so people don't misunderstand it to be a liberal period) Asimz123 (talk) 15:49, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Remove Western influenced

There has been an increasing body of literature which stresses the Islamic influences of the Tanzimat reforms, the influence of religious clerics and figures on the sultan (iirc the Bektashi or Nasqhabandi but I would have to check).

These most influential source pushing this view is "The Islamic Roots of the Gülhane Rescript" by Abu-Manneh. I think this should be adapted to reflect this. Genabab (talk) 13:53, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

That would be pushing a selective bias POW. Wikipedia does not choose sides. --Aciram (talk) 14:10, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

@Aciram But I am not saying we should change it from Western reforms to Islamic reforms. To reflect the debate, perhaps just saying "reforms" Genabab (talk) 14:32, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

It is established historiography that the Tanzimat mainly imported from the West, particularly France, and it's also true there was an Islamic element to it as well. So I don't think we should remove "Western influenced", but definitely incorporate interesting points into the article, or there can be a whole section dedicated to Islamic inspiration to the Tanzimat. Benlittlewiki (talk) 14:25, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Okay, I think that is a good compromise Genabab (talk) 14:31, 10 October 2024 (UTC)