Talk:Superior, Wisconsin

Date of incorporation as a city

You are missing when superior wisconsin was incorporated as a city If those of you who are reading this see this please add it —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.197.183.33 (talk • contribs) [This comment was added to the article. I added it here. -- Paddu 12:17, 27 May 2006 (UTC)]

The city was incorporated in February 1854.

Incorporation date added 27 November, 2006. Yodedp27 20:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I am from Superior, Wisconsin, and am currently editing this page. I originally wrote the history of the city for the Superior Chamber of Commerce in 1987, and as the page needs some work, it will take some time to adequately flesh out this page, so I will be working on it piecemeal. Yodedp27 04:16, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Today, the chamber is the Superior-Douglas County Chamber of Commerce and has been for many years.

I am in contact with the Superior Chamber of Commerce. New census information is needed as the information on the page is almost seven years old. Yodedp27 04:27, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

The Census is done every 10 years; the state and Census bureau both provide current estimates.

All changes made to page today by myself. Tracy Mandelin at the Superior Chamber of Commerce gave me all information under "History," Education, Economy, and requested I cite the Chamber of Commerce for these changes. Citations for these entire sections appear at the end of the entry as all information in those sections was provided to me by the Chamber. Yodedp27 20:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Other comments (moved from misplaced locations)

I live neer superior wisconsin, south range, actually and i think it would be good if someone addid a picture of lake superior from barker island or something. you should also tell about all the 4weeler trails and snowmobile trails around superior, because they to bring in torrists. By Kev39k December 17, 2007

Any chance we could get some pictures on here that don't make the town look like a crap-hole? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.151.35.66 (talk) 06:36, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been superseded by the comprehensive History rewrite proposal (see new section titled Proposed comprehensive History rewrite (1650–1918), posted on [insert today’s date]). Please direct any further comments there.

Note: This discussion has been superseded by the comprehensive History rewrite proposal (see new section titled Proposed comprehensive History rewrite (1650–1918), posted on [insert today’s date]). Please direct any further comments there.

Proposed update: Founding and the Hammond role (sourced from 1889 Eye of the North-West)

Summary of issue

The current Superior, Wisconsin page omits verified material about the city’s original platting (1853–54) and misattributes its founding leadership. Secondary articles have sometimes credited Ogden H. Hammond, but the city’s own first statistical report (Frank A. Flower, The Eye of the North-West, 1890) clearly identifies Gen. John H. (John Henry) Hammond as a principal founder and manager of the Land and River Improvement Company (1882–83). Because Wikipedia previously deleted stand-alone pages for “General John H. Hammond” due to name confusion, this change confines his biography to a sourced paragraph within the city history.

Rationale

Establishes verifiable, first-hand documentation of the 1853 claims and 1854 plat. Credits the correct Hammond (1833 New York City – 1890), a civil engineer and Union Army veteran, not the later diplomat Ogden H. Hammond or Congressman John H. Hammond. Uses neutral municipal and archival sources, avoiding unsourced local lore.

Primary citation

Flower, Frank A. The Eye of the North-West: First Annual Report of the Statistician of Superior, Wisconsin. Milwaukee: King, Fowle & Co., 1890. Public domain scans in Google Books and Wisconsin Historical Society.

Relevant pages: founding chronology (8–9), Land and River Improvement Co. (186–187), Hammond’s own statement (103, 132).

Supporting secondary sources

City of Superior, “History of Superior,” official website (incorporation dates 1887 village / 1889 city). John Henry Hammond Papers, 1864–1893 (University of Wisconsin Archives Finding Aid). Hammond, John Henry, 1833–1890, Papers (Filson Historical Society PDF biography). Gaertner, John T. The Duluth, South Shore & Atlantic Railway. Indiana University Press, 2009 — for contextual verification of Hammond’s railroad projects. Proposed new section text (exact wording offered for consensus)

Founding and early development (1853–1890)

Superior’s townsite at the head of Lake Superior was claimed in 1853 and first platted in 1854; activity slowed after the Panic of 1857 until a second wave of investment in the 1880s. In 1882–83 Thomas F. Oakes, civil engineer John H. (John Henry) Hammond, and Charles B. Lamborn organized the Land and River Improvement Company. According to the municipal report, Hammond served as director and manager, overseeing “the town [being] surveyed and platted, streets laid out and built, several thousand acres cleared, [dock-lines established] …” — work that laid the foundation of modern Superior. The report further credits Hammond with conceiving the plan that became the Duluth, South Shore & Atlantic Railway, and includes his own account of selecting the south (Wisconsin) shore for development because of its geographical advantages. The Hammond mentioned is John Henry Hammond (1833–1890), a New York City–born civil engineer and Union Army officer who served on General W. T. Sherman’s staff before turning to rail and land projects. He is distinct from both U.S. Representative John H. Hammond and record producer John H. Hammond II. Superior was incorporated as a village in 1887 and as a city on March 25, 1889, uniting “Old” and “West” Superior into a single municipality. Request for consensus Please review this draft for accuracy and tone. All factual statements trace to either Eye of the North-West or the cited secondary sources above. If no objections are raised after a reasonable period, the section can replace the unsourced paragraphs now under “History.” Singer2cantor (talk) 15:29, 5 October 2025 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been superseded by the comprehensive History rewrite proposal (see new section titled Proposed comprehensive History rewrite (1650–1918), posted on [insert today’s date]). Please direct any further comments there.

Note: This discussion has been superseded by the comprehensive History rewrite proposal (see new section titled Proposed comprehensive History rewrite (1650–1918), posted on [insert today’s date]). Please direct any further comments there.

Replace unsourced early-history paragraphs with verifiable text from 1889 Eye of the North-West and archival Hammond records

Summary of change:

Replace the current early “History” sentences (“Superior was founded by settlers who…”) with a new section fully sourced to the city’s own 1889 statistical report and archival records. → Adds missing founding chronology (1853–54) → Correctly attributes West Superior’s founding to Gen. John Henry Hammond (1833–1890) → Includes his documented lineage to Columbia Records producer John H. Hammond II (1910–1987), per Hammond II’s own memoir → Clarifies distinction from the unrelated mining engineer John Hays Hammond (1855–1936)

New section to insert (copy-paste ready for History section)

Edit summary for Talk page Adds verified founding chronology and clarifies role of Gen. John Henry Hammond (1833–1890) as founder of West Superior per 1889 municipal report and archival records. Includes family connection to record producer John H. Hammond II (cited from autobiography Hammond on Record). Removes unsourced or confused material about “Ogden Hammond.” Singer2cantor (talk) 15:50, 5 October 2025 (UTC)

== Founding and early development ==

Superior grew from mid-19th-century plats on Superior Bay into an incorporated city in the late 1880s, when a burst of railroad and harbor investment reshaped the Head of the Lakes. Wisconsin law incorporated the City of Superior on March 25 1889.

A major driver of late-1880s development on the west side of the bay (then promoted as “West Superior”) was the Land and River Improvement Company, led on the ground by Civil War veteran Gen. John Henry Hammond. Contemporary municipal publications describe the company’s office at Tower Avenue and Winter Street (1884) and Hammond’s incentives to spur settlement, including donating lots for a hotel and for the first child born on the West Superior plat. These reports also recorded the arrival of early manufacturers and civic infrastructure that accompanied incorporation.

=== Role of Gen. John Henry Hammond ===

John Henry Hammond (1833–1890) was born in New York City, served in the Union Army during the Civil War, and later turned to railroad and land development. Archival collections describe him as a founder of West Superior and manager of the Land and River Improvement Company.

Period sources credit Hammond with practical steps that seeded West Superior’s townsite—surveying and platting lots, opening roads, and establishing the Hotel Tower corner site.

Family and legacy. Hammond’s son John Henry Hammond Jr. (1871–1949) married Emily Vanderbilt Sloane; their son was the Columbia Records producer John Henry “John H.” Hammond II (1910–1987). In his autobiography *Hammond on Record* (1977) he recalled visiting Superior, calling it “one of the dreariest places in the country — not the end of the world, but you can see it from there.”

Not to be confused with Gen. John Hays Hammond (1855–1936), the mining engineer and diplomat unrelated to Superior’s founder.

Singer2cantor (talk) 15:52, 5 October 2025 (UTC)

--Singer2cantor (talk) 05:07, 6 October 2025 (UTC)

--Singer2cantor (talk) 05:08, 6 October 2025 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been superseded by the comprehensive History rewrite proposal (see new section titled Proposed comprehensive History rewrite (1650–1918), posted on [insert today’s date]). Please direct any further comments there.

Proposed comprehensive History rewrite (1650–1918)

Hello editors! I’ve drafted a fully referenced replacement for the “History” section of the *Superior, Wisconsin* article. It integrates primary and secondary sources including Dr. Ronald V. Mershart’s *Frontier Village: The Birth of Superior, Wisconsin, 1853–1883* (Douglas County Historical Society, 2002), Frank A. Flower’s *The Eye of the North-West* (1890), the Wisconsin Historical Society’s *John Henry Hammond Papers*, and the *Wisconsin Magazine of History* (Autumn 2009) article that documents the Francis Weeks scandal and its impact on Superior’s 1890s boom.

The proposed text is formatted per MOS:LAYOUT, neutral, and fully cited through 1918. Please review for consensus before I update the live article.

Summary of key additions:

• Adds Ojibwa and treaty context (1650s–1854)
• Details the 1853–54 Stuntz survey and plat
• Expands immigration, press, education, and churches (per Mershart)
• Covers “War with Duluth” depression and 1880s revival
• Adds sourced Hammond section and 1913 Hammond Park dedication
• Incorporates the Weeks scandal (1893) and subsequent recovery
• Brings chronology to WWI

Full proposed text:

== History ==

=== Pre-settlement and the Ojibwa Homeland (before 1853) ===
Long before white settlement, the Head of the Lakes region—where the St. Louis and Nemadji Rivers meet Lake Superior—was part of the traditional territory of the **Ojibwa (Anishinaabe)** people. They sustained themselves through wild-rice harvests, fishing, and seasonal migration between villages at Fond du Lac, Allouez Bay, and the Nemadji marshlands. French traders and Jesuit missionaries had reached the area by the 1660s, establishing kinship and trade networks that produced a mixed *métis* population of French, Ojibwa, and Cree ancestry.<ref>{{cite book |last=Mershart |first=Ronald V. |title=Frontier Village: The Birth of Superior, Wisconsin, 1853–1883 |publisher=Douglas County Historical Society |year=2002 |chapter=The Challenge to the Ojibwa}}</ref>

The **Treaty of Fond du Lac (1826)**, **Treaty of La Pointe (1842)**, and **Treaty of 1854** gradually transferred Ojibwa lands to the United States while reserving hunting and fishing rights. The 1854 treaty created the Bad River, Lac Courte Oreilles, Red Cliff, and Lac du Flambeau reservations, effectively opening Douglas County to non-Native settlement.<ref>{{cite book |last=Mershart |first=Ronald V. |title=Frontier Village |year=2002 |pages=12–19}}</ref>

---

=== Survey and Founding (1853–1854) ===
The push for a northern Great Lakes terminus began with the **Atlantic & Pacific Railroad Company** and promoters such as **Senator Stephen A. Douglas** and **Robert J. Walker**, who envisioned a route linking Lake Superior to Puget Sound.<ref>{{cite book |last=Mershart |first=Ronald V. |title=Frontier Village |year=2002 |chapter=Introduction}}</ref> In 1853, government surveyor **George R. Stuntz** mapped the headwaters of Lake Superior and identified the site of a potential harbor on the Wisconsin side.

Guided by Stuntz’s surveys, **Joseph Bullen** and **John Talleyrand Morgan** arrived at the Nemadji River on **June 30, 1853**, marking the location for the future town of Superior.<ref>{{cite book |last=Mershart |first=Ronald V. |title=Frontier Village |year=2002 |pages=21–23}}</ref> Their route, from St. Paul through dense tamarack bogs, became known as the **Military Road**. Nearby, Ojibwa leader **Joseph Osaugee** and his family acted as guides and translators, bridging Indigenous and settler communities during the transition period.<ref>{{cite book |last=Mershart |first=Ronald V. |title=Frontier Village |year=2002 |pages=17–19}}</ref>

The **first plat of Superior** was filed in 1854, with plans for a transcontinental railroad connection and deepwater harbor. The speculative fervor surrounding the town’s launch earned it early nicknames such as the “**Chicago of the North**.”

---

=== The Peopling of Superior (1854–1870) ===
Mershart describes the 1850s Superior as a “**polyglot frontier village**,” shaped by American pioneers from Illinois and Minnesota and successive waves of immigrants from Norway, Sweden, Finland, Cornwall, Germany, and Canada.<ref>{{cite book |last=Mershart |first=Ronald V. |title=Frontier Village |year=2002 |chapter=The Peopling of Superior}}</ref> Early settlers such as the **Bardon**, **Hayes**, and **Roy** families cleared land and established dock and lumber operations along the bay.

By 1870, the population had multiplied severalfold. The settlement’s diversity was mirrored in its neighborhoods: Norwegians and Finns along Tower Avenue, Cornish miners near the ridge, and mixed French–Ojibwa families near the river mouths. Mershart notes that this diversity gave Superior “a cosmopolitan identity decades before it became a city.”

---

=== Early Newspapers and Civic Institutions (1860s–70s) ===
Local newspapers such as the *Superior Chronicle* (founded by **Robert Mitchell**) and *Superior Times* became the town’s lifeline during economic downturns, promoting boosterism and civic pride.<ref>{{cite book |last=Mershart |first=Ronald V. |title=Frontier Village |year=2002 |chapter=Early Newspapers}}</ref> Editors like **Wise**, **Anderson**, and **Bardon** used their presses to attract settlers and investment, chronicling the arrival of Great Lakes steamers and industries.  
Municipal governance remained informal until the 1870s, when Superior incorporated as a **village in 1887**; prior to that, civic services were largely volunteer efforts.<ref>{{cite book |last=Flower |first=Frank A. |title=The Eye of the North-West: First Annual Report of the Statistician of Superior, Wisconsin |publisher=King, Fowle & Co. |location=Milwaukee |year=1890 |pages=11–14}}</ref>

---

=== Faith and Education (1854–1870s) ===
Religious institutions quickly followed settlement. **St. Francis Xavier Catholic Church** was founded in 1854 by missionary Father John Chebul; **First Presbyterian** and **Christ Episcopal** soon followed. Scandinavian Lutherans organized congregations by the 1860s, and Superior’s earliest **Jewish burial society** dates to 1871.<ref>{{cite book |last=Mershart |first=Ronald V. |title=Frontier Village |year=2002 |chapter=The Altars of Their Churches}}</ref>

Education paralleled these efforts. A one-room public school opened in 1856, followed by a formal district in 1867 and a high school charter in 1869. Dr. Mershart credits early educators like **Mary Newton Hayes** for establishing “a free education” system in a rough-hewn frontier environment.<ref>{{cite book |last=Mershart |first=Ronald V. |title=Frontier Village |year=2002 |chapter=A Free Education}}</ref>

---

=== Economic Setbacks and the “War with Duluth” (1870s) ===
The 1870s brought fierce rivalry between **Superior** and **Duluth**, which Mershart dubs “**The War with Duluth**.” Both towns competed for railroad and shipping supremacy at the Head of the Lakes. Superior’s hopes faded when Jay Cooke’s Northern Pacific line favored Duluth, plunging Superior into economic stagnation following the **Panic of 1873**.<ref>{{cite book |last=Mershart |first=Ronald V. |title=Frontier Village |year=2002 |chapter=The 1870s: War with Duluth}}</ref>  
Despite these setbacks, leaders like **George R. Stuntz**, **Hiram Hayes**, and **August Zachau** sustained the community through lumber and small-scale shipping.

---

=== Epiphany and Rebirth (1880–1889) ===
Mershart’s final chapter, “Epiphany,” portrays Superior’s revival after 1880 as capital returned to the Head of the Lakes. Harbor dredging, iron mining, and timber exports revived the local economy. The **Land and River Improvement Company**, incorporated in 1883 under **Thomas F. Oakes**, **Gen. John Henry Hammond**, and **Charles B. Lamborn**, oversaw massive land development, graded streets, and laid new docks.<ref>{{cite book |last=Flower |first=Frank A. |title=The Eye of the North-West |year=1890 |pages=182–187}}</ref>

By **March 25, 1889**, Superior was formally incorporated as a **city**, merging “Old Superior” and “West Superior” into one municipality.<ref>{{cite web |title=An Act to Incorporate the City of Superior |website=Laws of Wisconsin, 1889, ch. 152 |publisher=State of Wisconsin |date=March 25, 1889 |url=https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/document/acts/1889/152.pdf}}</ref>

---

=== General John Henry Hammond and the Modern City (1883–1890) ===
**Gen. John Henry Hammond** (1833–1890), a New York–born engineer and Civil War veteran, played a central role in West Superior’s transformation. As manager and director of the Land and River Improvement Company, Hammond oversaw surveying, street building, and waterfront expansion.<ref>{{cite web |title=John Henry Hammond Papers, 1864–1893 |url=https://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi/f/findaid/findaid-idx?c=wiarchives;didno=uw-whs-sup000r;view=text |website=Wisconsin Historical Society}}</ref><ref>{{cite web |title=Hammond, John Henry, 1833–1890, Papers (1860–1890) |url=https://filsonhistorical.org/research-doc/hammond-john-henry-1833-1890-papers-1860-1890/ |website=Filson Historical Society |date=2018-12-12}}</ref>  

Hammond’s son, **John Henry Hammond Jr.** (1871–1949), married Emily Vanderbilt Sloane; their son, **John H. Hammond II** (1910–1987), became the Columbia Records producer who championed Billie Holiday, Benny Goodman, and Bob Dylan. In *Hammond on Record* (1977), he recalled visiting Superior, calling it “one of the dreariest places in the country—not the end of the world, but you can see it from there.”<ref>{{cite book |last=Hammond II |first=John H. |title=Hammond on Record |publisher=Penguin Books |year=1977 |page=52}}</ref>  

:''Not to be confused with General John Hays Hammond (1855–1936), the mining engineer and diplomat unrelated to Superior’s founder.''

---

=== Growth, scandal, and reorganization (1890–1918) ===
After Hammond’s death in 1890, the **Land and River Improvement Company (L&R)** continued the West Superior program he had set in motion—platting, dock-lines, terminals, and utilities—under manager **Rowland J. Wemyss**. City reports describe L&R’s origins and credit Hammond’s field leadership for surveying, street construction, clearing, and dock-line establishment prior to 1886.<ref name=Eye1890>{{cite book |last=Flower |first=Frank A. |title=The Eye of the North-West: First Annual Report of the Statistician of Superior, Wisconsin (for the year 1889) |location=Milwaukee |publisher=King, Fowle & Co. |year=1890 |pages=186–187}}</ref>

In the early 1890s, New York attorney **Francis H. Weeks**, then L&R’s president, became entangled in the **Panic of 1893**. Weeks had transferred company funds to support the West Superior Iron & Steel enterprise and paid dividends from principal. When the panic hit, a manhunt and multiple front-page stories followed in the *New York Times*. Weeks fled the country, returned later in 1893, and was convicted at Sing Sing Prison.<ref name=WMH>{{cite journal |title=The Roosevelts in Superior |journal=Wisconsin Magazine of History |volume=93 |issue=1 |date=Autumn 2009 |pages=10–12}}</ref>

Despite the downturn, Superior’s harbor and rail links remained decisive. City statistics of the period record Great Northern docks, elevators, and slips and note that the **Duluth, South Shore & Atlantic Railway (DSS&A)** was “conceived by Gen. John H. Hammond,” underscoring his enduring planning influence.<ref name=Eye1890 />

The **Hammond family** remained engaged in Superior’s civic life. In July 1913, widow **Sophia Vernon Wolfe Hammond** and sons **Ogden** and **John** returned to dedicate **Hammond Park** in memory of the city’s founder. Local press coverage recorded the dedication ceremonies and remarks about the family’s continued interest in Superior’s growth.<ref>{{cite news |title=Fitting Tribute Paid to Memory of General Hammond |work=Superior Telegram |date=July 2, 1913 |page=1}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |title=Hammond Memorial Park Officially Presented to the City |work=Superior Telegram |date=July 7, 1913 |page=1}}</ref>

Superior’s industrial base—iron and steel, docks, and lake shipping—formed the platform for later wartime production. Plants established in the 1890s continued into the 20th century, and the harbor served regional shipbuilding and logistics during **World War I**, with expansion again during **World War II**.<ref name=WMH />

References cited:

• Mershart, Ronald V. Frontier Village: The Birth of Superior, Wisconsin, 1853–1883. Douglas County Historical Society, 2002.
• Flower, Frank A. The Eye of the North-West. Milwaukee: King, Fowle & Co., 1890.
• “An Act to Incorporate the City of Superior,” Laws of Wisconsin, ch.152 (1889).
• Wisconsin Historical Society, John Henry Hammond Papers, 1864–1893.
• Filson Historical Society, Hammond, John Henry, 1833–1890, Papers (1860–1890).
• Gaertner, John T. The Duluth, South Shore & Atlantic Railway. Indiana Univ. Press, 2009.
• Hammond II, John H. Hammond on Record. Penguin Books, 1977.
• Wisconsin Magazine of History 93:1 (Autumn 2009).
• Superior Telegram, July 2 & 7, 1913.

Edit summary for later use: > Replaced unsourced “History” with fully cited chronology (1650–1918) from Mershart, Flower, Hammond archives, and Wisconsin Magazine of History; adds Ojibwa treaties, immigration, civic life, Hammond era, Weeks scandal, and Hammond Park dedication. Singer2cantor (talk) 05:04, 6 October 2025 (UTC)

No objections after two weeks. Per WP:CONSENSUS (silence can indicate consent) and WP:BOLD, I plan to implement the proposed History rewrite in 48 hours. If you have concerns, please note them here and I’ll adjust before posting. --Singer2cantor (talk) 00:43, 19 October 2025 (UTC)

Singer2cantor (talk) 00:43, 19 October 2025 (UTC)

References

Looks like nice work! For many reasons folks are usually not too happy about one massive change. But IMO this looks pretty safe and my opinion is to just put it in. Maybe afterwards you could tell us what you took out. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 01:10, 19 October 2025 (UTC)

User:Singer2cantor stated on my talk page they used "a tool to assist with converting my already-written prose into Wikitext formatting". I suspect a bit too much AI tool was used, and reverted the edit, which needs to be re-written in Wikipedia's voice. Magnolia677 (talk) 20:34, 8 February 2026 (UTC)

Thanks to both of you for weighing in. I appreciate the review. I understand the concern about large, single edits. I’m happy to address that by reintroducing the History section incrementally, starting with the earliest period (Ojibwa homeland through 1854) using the same sourcing already discussed, and then proceed section by section if there are no objections. To clarify, the text is based on published secondary sources (Dr. Mershart’s Frontier Village, Flower’s Eye of the NorthWest, and the Wisconsin Magazine of History). I used a tool only to assist with converting my pre-existing text into Wikitext, not to generate content. If there are specific areas that need adjustment for a more encyclopedic tone, I’m very willing to revise them. Otherwise, I’ll start with a smaller portion so it can easily be reviewed. Singer2cantor (talk) 01:52, 9 February 2026 (UTC)

Ojibwe name of Superior & CFI thereof

@Magnolia677

I do understand that edits are not the way to resolve disputes, so I'm bringing this here as you requested.

Firstly: This article has begun with "Superior (Ojibwe: Gete-oodenaang) is..." for at least three years, and while discussing we should use the stable revision, which would actually mean reverting back to having it in the lead. I am fine with simply having it in the infobox until it is decided what to do with it

Here are all edits that add or remove this information:

• 1337426550 Magnolia677 removed from lead: per MOS:FIRST, MOS:LEADLANG
• 1338973509 JGHFunRun added to infobox: Readded native name, now using native_name in the infobox as recommended by (meant to end with "...as recommend by MOS:FIRST)
• 1339446028 Magnolia677 removed from infobox: Removing unsourced content
• 1340269684 JGHFunRun added to infobox: When I readded this, I apparently forgot to readd the source as well. I have readded both again.
• 1340275872 Magnolia677 reverted from infobox: the Indians had names for many places; nothing in the article suggests there was ever a settlement here
• 1340281960 JGHFunRun reverted back into infobox: It is not saying that there was a settlement that was called 'Gete-oodenaang'. This is what Superior is *currently* called in the Ojibwe language. It (I have no idea why I added the erroneous "it" at the end of this message)
• 1340290541 Magnolia677 reverted from infobox: This does not meet the criteria at Template:Infobox settlement#Parameter names and descriptions. Please discuss.
• 1340291930 JGHFunRun reverted back into infobox: "Per the 2023 RfC, it may also be used for names used by First Nations/Indigenous peoples, regardless of whether they are the dominant ethnic group in the location." - It most certainly meets CFI under this rule. You keep changing your reason and NONE of your reasons have been valid. (was quoted directly from Template:Infobox settlement#Parameter names and descriptions.)

If you have any other reasons, please levy them, as I believe I have sufficiently responded to all of

• MOS:LEADLANG does not apply, as it is about headwords, and not about
• MOS:FIRST is primarily about clutter, and does not say particularly much about CFI
• I need to know: When you said "the Indians had names for many places; nothing in the article suggests there was ever a settlement here": Why did you think that mattered?
• The article states "GETE-OODENAANG - old town - Superior". Bemidji State University is a very reputable source, especially regarding the Ojibwe language
• Template:Infobox settlement#Parameter names and descriptions expressly states that native_name = may be used for Indigenous names, including minority indigenous languages, per the 2023 RfC

~ JGHFunRun (talk) 07:43, 25 February 2026 (UTC)

I would second that the Indigenous name of the town is relevant and should be in the article itself, not stuck in the infobox. The town of superior is deeply connected to its Indigenous heritage and the names of many events around town include the Ojibwe name such as the gichi-gami brew festival for example. I feel that it should be in the main body of the article like it was before or inserted like it is for the the towns of La Pointe, Wisconsin, Winnipeg, and Bemidji, Minnesota. I see far less towns using the infobox, but near by Duluth dose.

I also want to point out when i read the edit war happening on the article history, the term "Indians" was being used to describe the Ojibwe people. “Indian” is not the preferred way for non-Indigenous people to refer to Indigenous people in the United States. It is a colonial term that has its roots in colonial history and genocide of Indigenous peoples in North America. While some Native Americans may be comfortable referring to themselves or being referred to as “Indians”, it is best for non-Indigenous people, or professional sources like Wikipedia, to use other language. Wikipedia:Hate is disruptive McCIrishman (talk) 17:50, 26 February 2026 (UTC)

If there is information about the topic of the article then I lean towards inclusion, if it is sourced. But this is an article about a CITY and it looks like nobody has provided a source that the Ojibwe had a name for the city / settlement. It has been challenged and by policy, having it suitably sourced is on of the requirements for it being retained. I tried looking up that name and it seems to mean "old town" rather a specific name for Superior. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 19:00, 26 February 2026 (UTC)

Are these considered a quality sources? https://decolonialatlas.wordpress.com/2015/04/14/the-great-lakes-in-ojibwe-v2/#:~:text=Gaa%2Dzhigaagowanzhigokaag%20(At%20the%20Place,Sucker%20River):%20Marquette%2C%20MI or https://mi-psc.my.site.com/sfc/servlet.shepherd/version/download/068t000000BYJ3iAAH McCIrishman (talk) 19:09, 26 February 2026 (UTC)

The first source is WP:RSPWORDPRESS. The second source, an official email from the Chair of a local Indian band, does not appear to meet WP:SOURCEDEF. Moreover, Gete-oodenaang (Old Town), as User:North8000 mentioned, is not a specific name for the city. Magnolia677 (talk) 19:28, 26 February 2026 (UTC)

Once again, the term "indian" is highly inappropriate for this discussion, as I said above, the term “Indian” is not the preferred way for non-Indigenous people to refer to Indigenous people in the United States. It is a colonial term that has its roots in colonial history and the genocide of Indigenous peoples in North America. While some Native Americans may be comfortable referring to themselves or being referred to as “Indians”, it is best for non-Indigenous people, or professional sources like Wikipedia, to use other language. Wikipedia:Hate is disruptive

Deutschland directly translates to "land of the people" or "the people's land" in English. But when speaking German the term Deutschland means the specific name for the country of Germany. Your concept that the translation must fit the colonial name of the town and not the specific name the town was called by the Indigenous peoples who lived there is not based in historical or linguistic accuracy. If you were to attend that local bands meeting where they speak Anishinaabemowin, they use the word Gete-oodenaang when referring to the specific city of Superior. This can also be seen in primary sources, including maps from the colonial era available via the Jim Dan Hill Library in Superior that I am unsure how to properly cite.

Government sources also give the specific name for the city as Gete-oodenaang when translated to Anishinaabemowin https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11044593/

Even the lang acknowledgment from the local University gives the specific name for the city as Gete-oodenaang when translated into Anishinaabemowin https://uwsuper.edu/about/mission-vision-and-values/land-acknowledgement-statement/

other sources discussing the Ojibwe language that include mentions of the city of Superior where the city is specifically named Gete-oodenaang include:

Wick, Molly, Deanna Erickson, Joel Hoffman, Lucinda Johnson, and Ted Angradi. "Navigating university openness in research policy inconsistent with indigenous data sovereignty: A case analysis." Ethics & human research 46, no. 2 (2024): 2-15.

Bloomfield, Leonard, and John D. Nichols, eds. The dog's children: Anishinaabe texts told by Angeline Williams. Univ. of Manitoba Press, 1991.

and several more. McCIrishman (talk) 20:17, 26 February 2026 (UTC)

@McCIrishman: One edit above, you inquired if this source is "considered a quality" source. The header on your "quality source"--your source!!--literally states it is from the "Red Cliff Band of Lake Superior Chippewa Indians". In your own source they refer to their Band as "Indians", and you want to lecture me about the word? Do even read your own edits? Jesus. Magnolia677 (talk) 20:49, 26 February 2026 (UTC)

As I said above, While some Native Americans may be comfortable referring to themselves or being referred to as “Indians”, it is best for non-Indigenous people, or professional sources like Wikipedia, to use other language. The local band has every right to use the language of their choice, but Wikipedia requires us to use Encyclopedic language when talking to each other and in articles. I made the choice to correct your use of inappropriate language in the name you were calling Indigenous peoples by following the outline set forth in WP:REMOVEUNCIVIL. Please read Wikipedia:Profanity, civility, and discussions and make efforts to be more polite to your fellow editors.

Also your behavior is now becoming hostile and unproductive for a quality conversation about the use of the Indigenous name of the city of Superior. If you wish to continue to discuss the topic of if and where to include the Ojibwe name of Gete-oodenaang for the City of Superior you are welcome to continue to participate. If you want to be disrespectful, us inappropriate names for Indigenous peoples, and take the lords name in vain in an effort to insult other editors, I would kindly ask you do that elsewhere. McCIrishman (talk) 22:16, 26 February 2026 (UTC)

I mostly agree with the other points you've made, but there is currently nothing against using Indian when used in a US context and few Natives actually find the term offensive; there's no point in hashing out whether and when 'Indian' is acceptable or not on this specific talk page, that would need to be a policy discussion elsewhere (I do find the use of it to sound a bit off in this context, especially while fighting tooth-and-nail to remove a Native name from the article, but currently there's no rules that would make anyone stop using 'Indian' on a talk page or edit summary). JGHFunRun (talk) 06:36, 2 March 2026 (UTC)

I fully agree there is no rule against it and this is not the place for debate. I did not expect my respectful comment asking for more appropriate language to be used would be met with such an outburst and unprofessionalism. I apologize for engaging with it and distracting from the point of this discussion. McCIrishman (talk) 14:47, 2 March 2026 (UTC)

I should note that most things on Pub Med are not governmental sources; Pub Med is a library, not a publisher nor reviewer. From the top of the website:

As a library, NLM provides access to scientific literature. Inclusion in an NLM database does not

imply endorsement of, or agreement with, the contents by NLM or the National Institutes of Health.

Learn more: PMC Disclaimer | PMC Copyright Notice

JGHFunRun (talk) 04:56, 23 March 2026 (UTC)

I’ve added a short, sourced paragraph on Stephen Bungo, based on contemporaneous newspaper clippings and later historical reporting. He appears in local sources as an early resident involved in civic and community life, is part of the founding documents of the City of Superior and is included here to reflect documented participation in Superior’s early development. Singer2cantor (talk) 13:08, 23 March 2026 (UTC)

"But this is an article about a CITY and it looks like nobody has provided a source that the Ojibwe had a name for the city / settlement. It has been challenged and by policy, having it suitably sourced is on of the requirements for it being retained. I tried looking up that name and it seems to mean "old town" rather a specific name for Superior."

The etymology is that it means old town. It specifically refers to Superior, Wisconsin.

In https://web.archive.org/web/20220715211823/https://faculty.bemidjistate.edu/bdonovan/placenames.html, the left column is the Ojibwe term, the center is the literal translation and the third is the place it specifically refers to.

It states "GETE-OODENAANG - old town - Superior" JGHFunRun (talk) 17:53, 1 March 2026 (UTC)

This is correct. The Indigenous name for the pre colonial settlement may not directly translate to the post colonial name for the settlement.

For example, the Lenni Lenape name for Philadelphia is Coaquannock which directly translates to "grove of tall pines". The Pueblo People of Tesuque called the settlement that is now Santa Fe, Ogapogee, which translates to “the white shell-water place”. Nobody disputes that the pre colonial Indigenous language names for those towns are Coaquannock or Ogapogee and their are countless other examples like this across the United States and the rest of the western hemisphere. Superior/Gete-oodenaang should be no different. McCIrishman (talk) 14:44, 2 March 2026 (UTC)

Eye of the Northwest by Frank A. Flower (1889) has a chapter titled Bungo and Other Early Settlers on page 46. The indigenous people of Superior were considered to be among the original settlers of the city with the Bungo family being most notably involved. It's an important distinction to note concerning the name of the city. In newspaper articles throughout the history of the city, Bungo and the local native population is repeatedly referenced and even celebrated. The traditional Ojibwe names referring to the natural features and the City of Superior were included in the founding document of the city because there were natives involved in the establishment of the city. It was not ornamental or peripheral but central to the identity of the city because of the multiple treaties signed prior to the city's founding. Singer2cantor (talk) 12:20, 23 March 2026 (UTC)

I'm starting to think that these names are either specific names or general terms for the area where / in which the current city is located. And maybe in some zeal for whatever reason some give it as an alternate name for the CITY, the city being a more "recent" creation. Giving is as an alternate name for the CITY is a statement that it is such and don't think that we have sourcing that meets wp:ver for that statement, particularly since it is questioned. (source must be a RS, and clearly state that it is a name for the city, not just imply that) I only spent about 10 minutes looking at the sources, but in that time, I not only did not see such a suitable statement, I didn't even see a statement of a specific native name for the area or place where the city is now located. Maybe the best thing is to put whatever is suitably established in the text of the article. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 22:17, 2 March 2026 (UTC)

The in-article source is https://web.archive.org/web/20220715211823/https://faculty.bemidjistate.edu/bdonovan/placenames.html

It says exactly "GETE-OODENAANG - old town - Superior"

This is hardly "just implying" that "Gete-oodenaang" refers specifically to Superior. It is stating outright the meaning of "Gete-oodenaang" to specifically refer to "Superior", with the literal translation as "old town". JGHFunRun (talk) 06:00, 3 March 2026 (UTC)

A personal webpage is not a reliable source. Magnolia677 (talk) 11:52, 3 March 2026 (UTC)

I found another source that may fit criteria better. "Voorhis, Dr. Paul. A Saulteaux Phrase Book. Brandon, MB: Department of Native Studies, Brandon University, n.d." from the University of Brandon is a professional research project to record the Ojibwe language and preserve it. In this book they have a dictionary that list the Ojibwe name for the city of Superior as Gete-oodenaang - Superior ('old town') (place) (CH)

also "White, Lena. Explore Ojibwe — A Practicial Reference Workbook for Teachers. (Master of Environmental Studies Degree), 1983." produces the same reference but I am not sure this academic research meets the high bar being set for this one specific city only. McCIrishman (talk) 14:36, 3 March 2026 (UTC)

also, Blackbird, A. J. "History of the Ottawa and Chippewa Indians of Michigan, and Grammar of their Language, etc." (1897). discusses a trade pattern for the Chippawa from Sault Ste. Marie to Superior and the name of the city of Superior where they conduct their trade is Gete-oodenaang McCIrishman (talk) 14:39, 3 March 2026 (UTC)

These two should be reliable sources. Reading through, the current sources aren't great and I wouldn't support its inclusion based on that, but, with the reliable sources saying it is the name of the city, I would definitely say it is warranted.PersusjCP (talk) 19:53, 3 March 2026 (UTC)

Did the Ojibwe ever have a settlement in Superior, or did they just have a name for it? Looking at some of those sources, the Ojibwe had names for a lot of geographic features. If they simply had a name for this place, then including that in this article would seem decorative, maybe even performative. Magnolia677 (talk) 21:26, 3 March 2026 (UTC)

In both "Voorhis, Dr. Paul. A Saulteaux Phrase Book. Brandon, MB: Department of Native Studies, Brandon University, n.d." and Blackbird, A. J. "History of the Ottawa and Chippewa Indians of Michigan, and Grammar of their Language, etc." (1897). The Ojibwe had settlements on what is now modern day Wisconsin point, Barkers Island, and at the base of the Nemadji River. All of these locations are within the city of Gete-oodenaang/Superior. These were not temporary but permanent settlements which included sacred locations and a large burial ground, once again located within the city. At least seven generations were laid to rest at the Wisconsin Point cemetery in the city of Superior, including the community’s leader Chief Joseph Osaugie. The sources also say they had a location to trade with Dakota and Lakota tribes along St. Louis bay in the west end of town, which AJ Blackbirds source says later became a trading post for colonial groups. McCIrishman (talk) 15:03, 4 March 2026 (UTC)

This is completly undue as there are only an estimated 25–30 Ojibwe speakers in the entire state of Wisconsin.. Moxy🍁 14:28, 13 March 2026 (UTC)

Oh, look what the cat dragged in.

You are arguing against clearly established policy and your only reasons is that victims of genocide are few in numbers... I don't see any weird racist or xenophobic implications here.

Taken from the information for Template:Infobox_settlement#Parameter_names_and_descriptions

> Per the 2023 RfC, it may also be used for names used by First Nations/Indigenous peoples, regardless of whether they are the dominant ethnic group in the location.

Beyond the established policy, you cannot just count the number of speakers. The Ojibwe language is near and dear to the Ojibwe, even those that don't speak the language. And I reiterate that they are victims of genocide, and you use their low numbers as justification for ignoring the established policy. Do you see the issue?

~ JGHFunRun (talk) 05:48, 22 March 2026 (UTC)

Not implying anything more than that, but IMO your claim that policy dictates inclusion to be doubly incorrect. First, the item that you are quoting is not a policy. Second, your statement relies on presuming an answer to the main open question of this thread, which is whether or not it is a name for the subject of the article which is a city. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 14:08, 22 March 2026 (UTC)

Do we have any sources so we can add info to the article about the indigenous people of this area. We should mention Indigenous peoples in the article but all the sources above a generic for the state. Moxy🍁 17:22, 22 March 2026 (UTC)

This history of the Ojibwe and their name for the land the city was founded upon was already cited, but deleted because it wasn't considered to be part of the history of the city. It is feature at length in both Dr. Ronald Mershart's Fromtier Village (2002) and Frank Flower's Eye of the Northwest (1889). I can offer properly formatted citations for you should you wish to use them, should they be deemed permissible. Current survey data concerning Ojibwe populations and languages seem irrelevant to the conversation as this was an historic name, not contemporary. The Ojibwe population was much larger at the time of the founding of the city. I created a section that included the Ojibwe people in the history of the city. This was because the platting and founding of the city was contingent upon two historic treaties made with the local Ojibwe population that established their rights under the leadership of Chief Kachewaishke (Chief Buffalo) and predicated the legal platting or founding of any kind of city upon the land between 1837 and 1854. This established a legal basis for founding a city, which was a crucial part of its history. Dr. Mershart wrote at length on this, as did Frank Flower, the city's first statistician, who included many other Ojibwe names for other natural features of the city. There were also some notable Ojibwe people who remained in the city after its founding and were cited in Eye of the Northwest, Village Frontier and other books about the history of the city. The Superior Public Library today emphasizes the importance of the Ojibwe culture and for many years there was an annual observance, Bonga Days, dedicated to George Bonga (c. 1802-1874) who dubbed himself "the first white man of Superior," because he was a well-educated mixed-race son of a Black fur trader and an Ojibwe mother who lived among the local white population. Singer2cantor (talk) 04:18, 23 March 2026 (UTC)

That's a fair question. I do agree that a better source than a faculty page is needed.

I find four hits on Google Scholar for "gete-oodenaang", three of which are relevant to Superior, Wi.:

• "Waterway Benefits Study Fact Sheet"
• "Navigating University Openness in Research Policy Inconsistent with Indigenous Data Sovereignty: A Case Analysis"
• "Influence of Identity on Human Well-Being Benefits of Blue Space"

The first one probably may not be a sufficient source. The latter two seem to be related in some way, I think the latter was taken from or included in the former

I am sorry for confusing RfC results with true policy, still I think it establishes CFI (as long as a reliable source is found). JGHFunRun (talk) 04:33, 23 March 2026 (UTC)

Dr. Paul Gaboriault, a genealogist and the former director of the Superior Public Library, wrote a feature article in the Superior Evening Telegram on the Bungo family on August 2, 1982 when they established what would eventually become colloquially known as Bungo Days. It celebrated a mixed-race Black and Indian family that was considered early founders of the city. The observance encouraged togetherness. Dr. Gaboriault is still alive and very mentally acute. This may be a good source on local native history and the lasting impact they maintained well over a century into the history of the city. https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-evening-telegram-who-was-stephen-bun/193992518/ Singer2cantor (talk) 04:51, 23 March 2026 (UTC)

I have collected more articles for your reference concerning Bungo Days, a yearly festival starting in 1982 that celebrated a Native American founder of the city. But articles about him and his family are featured throughout the history of the city.

https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-evening-telegram-stephen-bungo-day-p/193993053/

https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-evening-telegram-stephen-bungo-days/193993224/

December 22, 1925:

https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-evening-telegram-stephen-bungo-story/193993355/

July 16, 1954:

https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-evening-telegram-first-white-child/193993437/

February 28, 1986, Bungo's Monument:

https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-evening-telegram-stephen-bungo-monum/193993538/

There are many Superior news articles about Stephen Bungo dating back to the early 1870s describing his local business contributions, active participation in the Country Board, Electioneering, etc. He was always considered an early pioneer of Superior who was of mixed Black and Native American race. Singer2cantor (talk) 05:19, 23 March 2026 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing out your concerns on the relevance of the Ojibwe section that predated the platting and establishment of the City of Superior. I understand your concern about keeping the history focused specifically on Superior.

I’ve revised the material that was removed to focus more directly on the connection between Ojibwa land use, the Treaties of La Pointe (1842 and 1854), and the 1853 federal surveys that led to the founding of Superior, rather than including broader regional context.

Also, for reference, the Ojibwe name “Gete-oodenaang” is documented in Frank A. Flower’s The Eye of the North-West (1889) and in Mershart’s Frontier Village (2002), so I’m happy to ensure it is properly sourced wherever it is ultimately placed. My understanding is that inclusion of an Indigenous name in the infobox is based on reliable sourcing from relevant history books rather than the present-day number of speakers.

Would a more concise version of the pre-settlement section be acceptable? Singer2cantor (talk) 04:21, 23 March 2026 (UTC)

@Singer2cantor: I like the work that you just did. Provides explanatory information without the pitfalls associated with this potential naming topic.North8000 (talk) 15:36, 23 March 2026 (UTC)

Is there a way to access Voorhis's book online? Archive.org's Open Library has an entry for both his and White's book, but the former only has a "locate button" and claims the nearest libraries are over 300 miles away from me; the latter has a "borrow" option which I'll check out tomorrow

As for Blackbird's history, do you have a page number or quote for it? Ctrl+F finds lots of uses for "Lake Superior" and as an adjective, but never "Superior" as a city. JGHFunRun (talk) 04:52, 23 March 2026 (UTC)

Note the historical Anishinaabe Atlas maps I cite dating to the 1800s, tied to the treaties and ceded territories of the time, which I cite in the history, identify Gete-Oodenaang specifically as Superior, WI. Its location is accurately marked on their maps. Page 7 includes a map of the local region with the Ojibwe name shown where Superior is located. Page 73 defines the city's Ojibwe name. It says Gete-Oodenaang is the name for Superior, Wisconsin. It also says more generally on page 40 that Gete-Oodenaang translates as "at the old town," confirming the name is for the city, not generally the region. They offer a second term there, Wayekwaa-gichigainiin, for the location — not the city — what we call the Head of the Lakes, "at the end of the Great Lake; place of."

https://glifwc.org/sites/default/files/uploads/documents/2024-09/Atlas.pdf Singer2cantor (talk) 06:43, 24 March 2026 (UTC)

The latest addition to the article, made by User:Singer2cantor, states that Indigenous people "traveled along the St. Louis and Nemadji rivers and utilized the surrounding shoreline for seasonal activity"; shoreline which presumably included present-day Superior. No mention of a permanent settlement; just that they "used the shoreline" (as they probably did along hundreds of miles of other shorelines). My concern is the encyclopedic merit of a factoid like this. Magnolia677 (talk) 16:14, 23 March 2026 (UTC)

the Nemadji River and St. Louis River both flow through the modern day city. The sources show that the Nemadji River location was the living area and burial site for the Ojibwe and the St. Louis River location was where the Ojibwe traded. The Ojibwe dictionary cited above by Dr. Paul Voorhis distinguishes both these locations were named as one city, which was the Ojibwe name for the city of Superior, Gete-oodenaang. I find it hard to understand your assertion that there was no "permanent settlement" when the sources show that seven generations of Ojibwe were buried in the city. McCIrishman (talk) 16:59, 23 March 2026 (UTC)

I was commenting on the edit added to the article. Pay attention. Magnolia677 (talk) 17:02, 23 March 2026 (UTC)

why are you talking about something that isn't the topic of this discussion? Either talk about the Indigenous name of the town or make a new thread. McCIrishman (talk) 18:15, 23 March 2026 (UTC)

Thanks for raising that. My intention was not to shift the discussion, but to address the question of relevance by improving the historical context in the article itself.

I added a brief, sourced section on pre-settlement Ojibwa presence and the Treaties of La Pointe to clarify the legal and historical conditions required to have led to the 1853 surveys and the founding of Superior. I also added sourced material on Stephen Bungo to reflect documented indigenous participation in the city’s early civic life repeatedly recalled by later generations.

The goal was to ground the discussion in the specific history of Superior, rather than relying on present-day language statistics. The Ojibwe name is included based on reliable sourcing that associates it with the place and time, by citing their maps dating back to the 1800s, and its relevance can therefore be evaluated in that historical context.

Happy to keep the focus on placement (lead vs. infobox) if that’s helpful for reaching consensus. Singer2cantor (talk) 05:50, 24 March 2026 (UTC)

thank you my friend! Your point does matter, just a little off topic. McCIrishman (talk) 13:24, 24 March 2026 (UTC)

All good! It seems like we’re converging on inclusion of the Ojibwe name with appropriate sourcing, with the remaining question being placement. I’m comfortable leaving it in the infobox for now and revisiting if needed once there’s broader agreement. Singer2cantor (talk) 13:38, 24 March 2026 (UTC)

I would still advocate for it at the start of the article, but inclusion in the info box is better than no inclusion at all and would be a satisfactory resolution. It has been a pleasure to work with someone as respectful and polite as you @Singer2cantor McCIrishman (talk) 17:07, 24 March 2026 (UTC)

Same, I'd prefer it be in the lead paragraph, but I would say that including it in the infobox is "good enough" JGHFunRun (talk) 01:02, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

In the additions I don't see where they made a statement that there was no permanent settlement. Their addition just didn't go that far as to state that there was one. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 17:42, 23 March 2026 (UTC)

Not commenting on (or claiming knowledge about) the details /the details of the edit, I think that in general information on the land and land use prior to it being a city is useful and suitable info. North8000 (talk) 17:36, 23 March 2026 (UTC)

I would agree. Often time use of land is essential to a city being formed. The Ojibwe settlement of Gete-oodenaang led to the trading post established by colonizers and the colonial name of Superior for the land. McCIrishman (talk) 18:16, 23 March 2026 (UTC)

That’s a fair point. I’ve revised the wording to make the reference more specific to the Head of the Lakes and the immediate river systems associated with the site of Superior, rather than general shoreline use.

The intent is to provide a brief, sourced transition into the treaty framework that enabled the 1853 surveys and founding. Will repost edits soon. Thanks! Singer2cantor (talk) 21:25, 23 March 2026 (UTC)

{{ping|Singer2cantor} With the caveat that I haven't done a an expert thorough analysis of the recent edits....Nice Work! Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 21:25, 11 April 2026 (UTC)