Talk:Sultan Larsinsky

Requested move 22 May 2026

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Moved as an uncontested request with minimal participation. If there is any objection within a reasonable time frame, please ask me to reopen the discussion; if I am not available, please ask at the technical requests page. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 03:22, 29 May 2026 (UTC)

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Sultan-Murza → Sultan Larsinsky – "Murza" is a silly name as its a title similar to "Prince", it could be misleading for the page name to be "Sultan-Murza" as some people might assume Murza is his name. He is mentioned in the sources as "Sultan Larsinsky" and is only called "Sultan Murza" when refered naturally; so Sultan Larsinsky, as he is the owner of Lars and thats what he is called, is more fitting for this article. Ch3rk.essk0 (talk) 00:54, 22 May 2026 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Concern regarding the statement that Sultan Larsinsky was the son of Prince Dzherakhmet

According to the article's genealogy, Larsin (identified here with Sultan Larsinsky) was the son of Dzherakhmet and brother of Bek, the father of Chur. This genealogy fits the folkloric data, where Larsin is described as the ancestor of the Lyanovs and Akhrievs. The identification with Sultan Larsinsky, however, does not fit the chronology of the historical record.

A 1733 Georgian letter records Chur's sons as adults. Assuming they were approximately 30-40 years old at that time, they would have been born around the 1690s. This places Chur's birth around the 1660s, Bek's around the 1640s, and Dzherakhmet's around the 1610s (allowing for normal variation in generation length).

By contrast, Sultan Larsinsky is documented in Russian sources in 1589 and again during the events of 1596–1597, meaning he must have belonged to the mid-16th century generation. This creates a chronological discrepancy between Sultan Larsinsky's documented lifetime and the genealogy presented in the article, as the proposed relationship would place Dzherakhmet after Sultan Larsinsky's lifetime. BlueWave04 (talk) 10:54, 11 July 2026 (UTC)

Are you saying we shouldn't add Dzherakhmet as the father of Sultan Larsinsky? I see, I didnt really know about Chur's sons so I apologise, I just added it because Chakh Akriev claims Larsin is Sultan Ch3rk.essk0 (talk) 11:00, 11 July 2026 (UTC)

I understand why you added it. The connection makes sense if one follows Chakh Akhriev's identification of Larsin with Sultan Larsinsky. My concern is not with the genealogy itself, but with presenting Dzherakhmet and Sultan Larsinsky as father and son.

The genealogy mainly comes from the work of Tsurov, Tsurov, and Tsurov (2020). They descend from the Chur(Tsur)–Bek–Dzherakhmet lineage, which, like the descendants of Prince Kist in the neighbouring Feappii society, held a prominent position, with its members traditionally serving as authorities in political and religious matters. Therefore, I understand why connecting Sultan Larsinsky to Dzherakhmet would be historically significant. If Larsin from Ingush oral tradition is the same person as Sultan Larsinsky, then placing him within the Dzherakhmet lineage would make sense from a traditional perspective.

The problem is mainly chronological. The 1733 Georgian document mentioning Chur's sons as adults places Chur, Bek, and Dzherakhmet in the 17th century, while Sultan Larsinsky is already documented in Russian sources in 1589–1596. With the genealogy as currently reconstructed, Dzherakhmet therefore cannot easily be his father.

A possibility is that Sultan Larsinsky and Dzherakhmet belonged to the same princely lineage but were separated by an earlier generation, or that the oral tradition preserved a connection without preserving the exact genealogical relationship.

For that reason, I would suggest not presenting Dzherakhmet as the father of Sultan Larsinsky without further evidence. It may be better to state that Akhriev identified Larsin with Sultan Larsinsky and that later tradition connects him with the Dzherakhmet lineage, while noting that the exact genealogical relationship is uncertain. BlueWave04 (talk) 11:28, 11 July 2026 (UTC)

I see. accordingly to this, I am deleting the parts in the article where it says Dzherakhmet is Sultans father Ch3rk.essk0 (talk) 11:38, 11 July 2026 (UTC)