Talk:Subcomandante Marcos

Re: "The Zapatista Struggle Continues (1994– )" section

This is a very oddly structured section that gives very little actual detail on the subject matter, instead listing numerous events that Marcos has attended, without any further context being given. The sources cited are also largely from the Enlace Zapatista, which should be clear is not a reliable source. I think this subsection needs to be completely redone in order to provide actual information about Marcos' activities post-1994, possibly changing the heading to something more appropriate, or else it should be removed entirely. --Grnrchst (talk) 16:24, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

I am the author of this section. My purpose was to produce a brief picture of all the events that Marcos took part in so as to show the extent of his role as spokesperson and (for want of a better word) "front man" for the Zapatistas. I take the point made by Grnrchst, in that the purpose of this section is perhaps not made clear, so I intend to alter that in a week or so, but I feel that entirely removing the whole section is too much (throwing the baby out with the bathwater indeed!). Finally, I see no problem with the source (stated above as being Enlace Zapatista) as what is listed here are simple facts (dates, venues, event names), and these are all attested to by other sources (most often journalists reporting in La Jornada) and are not contested by anyone. Lucerito1957 (talk) 06:20, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

I have now completed the rewrite of the introduction to this section. Lucerito1957 (talk) 07:58, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

I see that this section was deleted despite my above justification for writing (and re-writing) it. Since Grnrchst (talk) did not engage in the discussion above, but simply waited a while and then deleted this section, I have re-instated it. However, to address the concerns of Grnrchst (talk) I have moved the actual list of events to an Appendix.

Without this section on the Zapatista struggle continuing, a reader would have no idea of what Marcos did in the nearly 20 years from 1995 to now. Worse, it would give the impresion he had been inactive, when nothing could be further from the truth.

As for sources, these have been added, but there is really no doubt that these events took place. Enlace Zapatista may not be a neutral source, but it contains photographs and recordings from these events, proving that they actually took place and that Marcos was present, which is all that is being claimed in the article. Lucerito1957 (talk) 01:05, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Hey, apologies, I didn't see this. I agree that the article does need to be something to display Marcos' recent activities, but I still don't think this list is it. While its purpose is clearer, it still doesn't communicate actual solid information about his activities, it just lists events he showed up to. What level of participation did he have? What did he say about them? Why were these events important to his biography? These are the kind of things I don't think are easily communicated in a simple list. I'm happy to leave this up for now, until a better alternative section can be written, but I think this is a case where using prose would be a lot more helpful for the reader than a timeline. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:51, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

The list is not simply of "events Marcos showed up to". As the preamble makes clear, it is a list of events that were either convened by the Zapatistas and where Marcos played a major role by presiding over them and often initiating, organizing, or orchestrating them, or were put on by other organizations at which Marcos acted as representative of and spokesperson for, the Zapatistas. I feel it gives a snapshot of the sheer amount of such activities and endeavors undertaken by Marcos on behalf of the Zapatistas, which in turn gives an insight into his importance within the movement. If you feel this is still not satisfactory, I am happy to discuss this further. Henck’s Subcomandante Marcos, Global Rebel Icon contains a quite thorough timeline of such events up to 2018 that the reader here could instead be pointed to after a short prose discussion. Lucerito1957 (talk) 11:26, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Appendix section

Moving this section from the article to this talk page for safe-keeping. It's possible this can be used as a timeline of some sort but it would need to be sourced to reliable, secondary sources if note worthy. It's currently mostly sourced to unreliable and primary sources.

Extended content

{{Prose|section}} The following is a list of events (in chronological order) that were either convened by the Zapatistas, and initiated, organized, orchestrated, or presided over by Marcos, or at which he played a major role; or events put on by other organizations at which Marcos acted as representative of, or spokesperson for, the Zapatistas (EZLN):

• Peace Talks (March 1994)
• National Democratic Convention (August 1994)
• The First National Indigenous Forum (January 1996)
• Meetings with Oliver Stone, Danielle Mitterrand and Régis Debray (April / May 1996)
• The Intercontinental Encuentro For Humanity and Against Neoliberalism (July / August 1996)
• The Zapatistas' Second Encuentro with Civil Society (May 1999)
• The March of the Color of the Earth / The March for Indian Dignity (February / March 2001)
• The Other Campaign (January—December 2006)
• Spanish Television (TVE) interview with Marcos by Jesús Quintero (June 2006)
• The First Encounter between the Zapatistas and the Peoples of the World (January 2007)
• The 12th Hispano-American Meeting of Writers "Hours of June" at Sonora University (June 2007)
• The "Ethics and Politics" Conference at the UNAM (June 2007)
• The National Forum Against Repression in Mexico City (June 2007)
• The Second Encounter between the Zapatistas and the Peoples of the World (July 2007)
• The "Latin America as seen from the Other Campaign" Round Table at the National School of Anthropology and History (July 2007)
• The "Confronting Capitalist Dispossession: The Defense of Land and Territory" The Press Club (July 2007)
• A Round Table at the University of the Earth in San Cristóbal (July 2007)
• The Encuentro of the Indigenous Peoples of America held in Sonora (October 2007)
• The First International Colloquium in Memory of Andrés Aubry: Planet Earth, Anti-systemic Movements (December 2007)
• The National and International Caravan for Observation and Solidarity with Zapatista Communities (August 2008)
• The Global Festival of Dignified Rage (January 2009)
• The Celebration in Homage to Compañeros Luis Villoro Toranzo and Zapatista Teacher Galeano (May 2015)
• The Seminar on Critical Thought in the Face of the Capitalist Hydra (May 2015)
• The ConSciences for Humanity (December 2016 – January 2017)
• The "Walls of Capital, the Cracks of the Left" Seminar (April 2017)
• ConSciences for Humanity Festival (December 2017)
• "To Watch, to Listen, to Speak: No Thinking Allowed?" Round Table Discussion (April 2018)
• The First "Puy ta Cuxlejaltic" Film Festival (November 2018)
• The Second "Puy ta Cuxlejaltic" Film Festival (December 2019)

References

czar 14:31, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Could you please engage with the above discussion between myself and Grnrchst (talk) on this matter. There, the question of sources was adressed, and even if this issue was not resolved to your satisfaction, some indication that you have read this, and have some form of argument against the assertion that the sources are reliable (at least regarding their attesting to Marcos being present, in the roles ascribed, at these events) would be appreicated. The case for the inclusion of this list of events is also made above. Again, you are perfectly at liberty to diagree on the matter of this section's usefulness/significance, but affording some reason why (e.g. it's in list format, you don't agree that it shows what Marcos has been doing in more recent years) would be helpful. Thanks Lucerito1957 (talk) 10:47, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Lucerito1957, if these are noteworthy events, we would expect them to be covered in reliable, independent, secondary sources. If the event is noteworthy, more than just providing a timeline of these events (which we typically do not do for biographies), we should be using those secondary sources to explain to a general audience in prose what import those events had on Marcos's life, since this is a biography. Simply listing events associated with Marcos isn't within Wikipedia's scope, even as an appendix.

Also Wikipedia follows a principle of Bold, Revert, Discuss, meaning that editors are encouraged to be bold, but if their edits are challenged/reverted, the standard is to remove the content, bringing that section to the talk page until there is consensus to re-add it. czar 23:43, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Hi czar,

to respond to your points:

1) these events are attested to in reliable secondary sources in many instances (e.g. the Mexican daily La Jornada).

2) I can't speak for Wikipedia biographies, but plenty of published (i.e. book-format) biographies contain timelines (they are widely perceived to be quite useful)

3) it is not claimed that these events had import on Marcos' life; rather, Marcos impacted these events (a legitimate aspect of biography is, after all, how a person shaped circumstances / events, not just how circumstances / events shaped a person)

4) the problem with the Bold, Revert, Discuss policy being adopted in this particular instance is that a reasonably informative (but admittedly by no means optimum) section that prevents the misleading impression being formed that Marcos ceased being active many years ago has now been removed, with a yawning gap being left in its place. (My own policy is not to delete material that another editor has contributed unless it is factually incorrect or wholly irrelevant: I believe neither to be the case in this instance.) In short, it is too easy for one editor to simply remove input by another editor and leave nothing in its place. I have absolutely no problem with the material in the Appendix being replaced with prose - in fact, I very much welcome it! - but unless you (or someone else) are prepared to do this, or, more accurately, until you (or someone else) are prepared to do this, then I personally believe it is better (i.e. more informative for readers) to have the timeline than simply nothing after circa 2014.

That being said, I am not going to reinstate the material for fear of going back and forth on this. Lucerito1957 (talk) 10:18, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

If the events are discussed in reliable, secondary sources as noteworthy in Marcos's life, we should cite those rather than primary sources and incorporate that detail into his general biography. If after that expansion, there is a separate need to split out specific instances into a timeline, we can discuss, but traditionally that is not a format used in Wikipedia biographies, since we're focusing on writing the actual biography. Note that other Wikipedia biographies may have timelines for major conflicts but rarely for an individual's biography. I.e., if this would be better put as a timeline of the Chiapas conflict, I think that would have a greater chance of fitting, but even then we should start with prose and not the timeline. We disagree on whether a timeline with primary sources is a better interim replacement than nothing. I think it makes the article confusing. An alternative is to take the reliable, indepenent, secondary sources that you mention discussing these topics and putting them in the Further reading section both for reader reference and future expansion. czar 12:51, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. The timeline was introduced with a paragraph of prose explaining its purpose, so I don’t think it made the article confusing at all. (I agree that we don’t need a timeline if a prose account of the post-2014 years is included: the current timeline is intended as a stop gap.) Personally, I still maintain that a reader is better served by having even poorly presented facts at their disposal than by being confronted with a total absence of data, but I guess readers will just have to go and search out for themselves the existence of any post-2014 courses of action undertaken by Marcos…at least until someone fills the gap with something other than the timeline that I produced. I don’t envisage having time myself to produce a prose account any time soon: I therefore very much hope someone else will undertake this work. Lucerito1957 (talk) 10:38, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Death

as per the communique published last year, sup Galeano (prior Marcos) has died in october of 2023. Additionally, the communique is signed as "Capitan Insurgente Marcos". The cause is not mentioned in the text. Possible post-mortem title change?

original communique in spanish https://enlacezapatista.ezln.org.mx/2023/10/29/segunda-parte-los-muertos-estornudan/ english translation https://enlacezapatista.ezln.org.mx/2023/10/30/second-part-do-dead-people-sneeze/ 31.183.158.137 (talk) 17:32, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

See . It doesn't seem he's actually dead. It's just symbolic.--Jack Upland (talk) 23:26, 5 March 2024 (UTC)