Talk:Statism

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Deleting content from the article (2004/5)

Should this article be a page-long overview of the concept of statism (A good article and NPOV, as far as I can tell) or a 4-sentence definition? Is there a reason you keep deleting most of the content from the page, TDC? Rhobite 23:11, Jul 19, 2004 (UTC)

I'm not sure that the discussion that's currently there is particularly helpful. There must be a better (NPOV name) article where this discussion can be placed, which in the long run will lead to a better discussion, and "Statism" just be a description of the term and its usage. Rd232 18:38, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Also, "Statism" is a pejorative term; nobody self-identifies as a supporter of statism (even if some end up defending it when opponents insist on using the term). A comparison with "capitalism" (RJII) is silly. Capitalism is an incredibly well-established and fairly-well-defined term used very widely across the social sciences; and there are plenty of people who self-identify as supporters of capitalism. Neither is true of "statism", which is well-established only as a pejorative term. Rd232 18:38, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

"Statism" is not a "pejorative term." Some just use it pejoratively at times in the same way people use "socialist" or "communist" pejoratively. If you're not familiar with seeing "capitalist" used pejoratively, take a trip to some of the more socialist-leaning countries in Europe and talk to the leftists. RJII 19:12, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

A "pejorative term" is one that is only (or very predominantly) used pejoratively. Statism fits the bill. Capitalism does not. Of course the latter can be used pejoratively as well, but that's different from being a "pejorative term". Rd232 19:20, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Calling it a pejorative term is a biased statement on your part in an apparent attempt to dissuade people from using the word. The word represents a real concept. Whether people want to use it pejoratively or not is their decision. But there is nothing intrinsically pejorative about it. Many people do advocate centralized economic planning by the state. Whether all of them realize it or not, there is a word for that. RJII 19:32, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Groan. It's a simple statement of fact that "statism" is a pejorative term, if it's only used by opponents of the idea - which I believe is the case and you've not substantially denied. Whether the term can be reclaimed at some point in the future to also be used by supporters of it (like "queer") is neither here nor there. (The way it is used by opponents - see some of the ranting up the Talk page - suggests this is unlikely.) It is currently a pejorative term. Which, BTW, says nothing about the validity or otherwise of what the term describes. Rd232 19:55, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Many people do speak against statism and denounce it vehemently (same for the term "communism"), but I don't think that given that, that it logically follows that term itself is a pejorative. I think you're mistakingly making a leap of logic to conclude that. RJII 20:08, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

This is to your point about the term only being used by opponents of the idea. It's not true. I just did a quick search in google, and some guy says "As a rather ambivalent fellow towards democracy and an advocate of statism and centralized authority, I can still see the merits of the American balance." It's at http://blog.marmot.cc/archives/2004/11/08/i-voted-for-bush-but/ if you want to verify that. RJII 20:25, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

And there is no shortage examples where it's not used as a "pejorative" but merely to describe economic systems. RJII 01:02, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Show, don't tell. I haven't seen any cases where "statism" is used neutrally or positively by someone who is not a clear opponent of it. Rd232 01:09, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Articles are not that hard to find. Here's some just from a quick look with Google:

• [http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:wDGjXSa0lPgJ:www.ciaonet.org/olj/cato/v23n2/cato_v23n2mbj01.pdf+%22statism%22&hl=en

I could go on and on. Look up uses of the word yourself. Someone having an opinion on whether statism is good or bad is not the same thing as saying that "statism" is a pejorative. Like any political stance, if you look up the term, mostly what you're going to find is people making value judgements on whether it is good or bad. Not suprisingly, most commentary on statism is why the writers think it's bad. But does that make the term a pejorative? I don't think so. I put up a book on the web page called "The Ideal of Statism" from someone who thinks it's good. The only reason I can fathom that you want the article to say statism is a pejorative is because you're biased against capitalism, you don't like the word "statism" and want to give the impression that it's biased so it can't be used in discussions of economic systems. Again, don't equate opposition to "statism" as meaning that "statism" is a pejorative. That's quite a leap. RJII 01:58, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

One of your links is the Cato institute; another, the NCPA ("The NCPA's goal is to develop and promote private alternatives to government regulation and control..."); the third is a review of book described as "no less credible and instructive for the unconcealed commitment of its authors to market principles". All three must be considered opponents of "statism". "The Ideal of Statism" was written in 1968 in Urdu. We are not talking about the meaning of "statism" in other languages 40 years ago. Rd232 10:28, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

As I've said before, the word "statism" is only used by people who are in favour of a strongly free market economy and want to paint an economy with more intervention than this as "statist". People who support a greater role for government do not use the term. This is not because they are not prepared to defend the concept (eg social contract and human rights and the need for regulation because of firms' market power) but because they are not interested in adopting a term coined and used by opponents. QED - it is a pejorative term, because it is only used by opponents. Rd232 10:28, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Is the term "centralized economic planning" a pejorative too? You're going to be just as hard-pressed to find a lot of people saying they believe in "centralized economy planning" as well. People just aren't much into it anymore. Just fact that there aren't a lot of people around who say they are into "centralized economic planning" or "statism" doesn't equate with those terms being pejoratives. Again, I think it's an irrational leap you're making.

So? Statism lumps a vast range of economic/political approaches together, ranging from "centralised economic planning" to market economies with government regulation. Rd232 22:59, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

For it to be statism it has to be a significant amount of planning, whereas in capitalism such planning is not significant in contrast to the overwhelming amount of economic freedom of the system, which is why they're opposites. But yes, it does "lump together" a lot systems and that's exactly why the term is useful, but so does "planned economy." Whenever you can have a term that is a broader classification it helps communication. Pretty much anything that isn't statism is going to be capitalism. "Statism" sums up everything supporters of capitalism are against, but that doesn't make the term a pejorative. RJII 23:13, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The lumping together is pejorative, just as if I invented a term to lump together libertarians and muppets (muppetarians?) and then used constantly, it would be a pejorative term I wouldn't expect libertarians (or muppets) to adopt. And why are European economies frequently described as "statist"? Rd232 09:08, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

If they have a relatively large amount of government-intervention in the economy then are statist. If they don't then they're not. There's always the possibility of someone mislabeling. At some point of liberalizing an economy it starts becoming capitalist. Where is that point? It can be a matter of subjectivity. For example, extreme free market advocates would not even grant that the market is free enough for the US to properly be called capitalist. There is a continuum from capitalism, through mixed economy, through statism. Just as there are arguments whether particular nations are statism, so there are arguments whether a situation can rightfully be called capitalism. Why not put a section in there called "Which economies are statist?" like in the Capitalism article called "Which economies are capitalist?" if it's a concern?

I don't give a flying monkey's which nations are labelled which. The issue is the label itself. "Statism" is not the opposite of capitalism except among US "free market advocates". Rd232 10:58, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Morality of Statism (2005)

This section seems to be a ridiculously protracted attempt by someone trying to morally justify statism. Considering this, I think the article is weighted too much toward the morality of statism over practical justification for it.

It's not even about statism - it's about the nature of society and (implicitly) the state. As I said before, this whole discussion isn't appropriate here; but I'm not sure exactly where it should go. People who use the term "statism", of course, aren't likely to make helpful suggestions on this point... Rd232 19:59, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Maybe we should just wipe it out. RJII 21:44, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Social contract (2005)

Why was the social contract paragraph removed from this article? It's relevant, and should be replaced. Rhobite 04:47, Jan 26, 2005 (UTC)

See the above section "Morality of Statism" for a little discussion on that. I think it was too far out of the scope of "statism" and rambled on too long. So I think I condensed what might have been important into the one paragraph. Even then, it still seems inappropriate to me. Seems like a discussion of this type should focus a little more on economics at least. RJII 03:07, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

NPOV (unsigned and unknown date)

This article violates the principle of NPOV. The paragraph on "Support and Criticisms of Statism" contains only criticism. The paragraph on "Discussion on the Morality of Statism" contains only a few words about the arguments of supporters of statism, but ample explanations of the arguments of anti-statists.

statism is the opposite of limited government (unsigned comment added 2012)

There are so many distortions and inaccuracies in this article that I’m not sure how to begin to fix it. For starters, the line “Limited government…make(s) up the middle territory of the scale of statism” is preposterous. Limited government is the opposite of statism. Statism is the belief that the chief purpose of government is to “plan society” in a way that will improve the state overall. (Hence the term “state-ism”.) Limited government is the belief that the chief purpose of government is to protect the rights of the individual—in spite of the wants and needs of the state.

The article is trying to deliberate frame political philosophy as if the only two options are anarchism and statism. Or in other words, that the only two options are no government or authoritarianism.