Talk:Spartan Assembly

"as it is proved by the use of the month Apellaios"

What does that mean? Doesn't make any sense to me. Fresheneesz (talk) 22:38, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Contradictory information?

"There is a single reference to a "small assembly" at Sparta, but nothing is known as to its nature or competence. The term apella does not occur in extant Spartan inscriptions, though two decrees of Gythium belonging to the Roman period refer to the μεγάλαι ἀπέλλαι"

What is this talking about? It seems very out of place. Is this suggesting that the Sparta might not actually have had the Apella? Fresheneesz (talk) 22:42, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Yes, they never used the word. I corrected the article. T8612 (talk) 12:41, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

The word usually appears in plural.There was a festival named "apellai". Jestmoon(talk) 12:50, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Map from German Wiki might be useful?

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skias_%28Sparta%29#/media/Datei:Map_of_Archaeological_site_of_Sparta.jpg

Showing the locations of the Skias and the Agora might help people to picture it.

--KimYunmi (talk) 16:12, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Ekklesia (Sparta)

Dear Colleagues {Paul August] & [T8612]

We seem to be getting ourselves into a bit of a tangle between the meaning (and words used) in the article and the mechanics of the reference to [EB1911]. I'm trying to deal with the second of these by avoiding use of (https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/1911_Encyclopædia_Britannica/Apella s.v. Apella) and instead using an extra link to the main wikilink to [EB1911] which is at the end of the first sentence to the paragraph called Structure.

Can those with a much better understanding of the meaning of the article fix this? Maybe the words at the beginning of the para titled Name can be changed and/or a link to the [EB1911] dropped.

Regards

ArbieP ArbieP (talk) 10:49, 29 October 2025 (UTC)

Hey ArbieP, I'm working on an entire rewrite of this article which will, in fact, eliminate any need for a cite to EB 1911. Paul August ☎ 12:01, 29 October 2025 (UTC)

This article needs to be renamed

The official name for the popular assembly at Sparta—either 'the Ekklesia' or 'the Apella'—is disputed. Modern scholarly consensus had favored the name 'Apella'; as recently as 1972, Ste Croix could declare that the "Spartan Assembly is still commonly referred to as 'the Apella'". However following Wade-Gery 1958, Andrewes 1970, and Ste. Croix 1972, scholarly consensus shifted in favor of 'Ekklesia'. More recently, Welwei 1997, 2000, and 2004 has revived the dispute, advocating in favor of 'Apella'.

References

References

• Andrewes, A. (1970), p. 134 in A Historical Commentary on Thucydides. Vol. 4: Books V25-VII A. W. Gomme, A. Andrewes, and K. J. Dover (eds.), Oxford University Press, Oxford, 1970. ISBN 9780198141785.

• Ehrenberg, Victor (1968), From Solon to Socrates: Greek History and Civilization During the Sixth and Fifth Centuries B.C., London, Methuen, 1968. Internet Archive.

• Luther, Andreas, (2006), "Der Name der Volksversammlung in Sparta", in Das frühe Sparta, Andrew Luther, Mischa Meier, and Lukas Thommen (eds.), Franz Steiner Verlag, Munich, 2006, pp. 73-88.

• Nafissi, Massimo (2010), "The Great Rhetra (Plut. Lyc. 6): A Retrospective and Intentional Construct?", in Intentional History: Spinning Time in Ancient Greece, Lin Foxhall, Hans-Joachim Gehrke, and Nino Luraghi (eds.), Franz Steiner Verlag, 2010.

• Schulz, Fabian (2009), "Lykurgs Reform ohne Demokratie ? Zwei Konjekturen der Rhetra", in Ktèma : civilisations de l'Orient, de la Grèce et de Rome antiques, N°34, 2009. pp. 333-349.

• Ste. Croix, G. E. M. de (1972), The Origins of the Peloponnesian War, Duckworth, London, 2001 (1972). ISBN 0-7156-1728-1.

• Wade-Gery (1958), Essays in Greek History Basil Blackwell, Oxford, 1958. Internet Archive

• Welwei, Karl-Wilhelm (1997), "Apella oder Ekklesia? Zur Bezeichnung der spartanischen Volksversammlung", in Rheinisches Museum für Philologie 140 (1997), H. 3/4, 242-249. JSTOR 41234282.

• Welwei, Karl-Wilhelm (2000), Polis und Arché: kleine Schriften zu Gesellschafts- und Herrschaftsstrukturen in der griechischen Welt, Franz Steiner Verlag, 2000. ISBN 9783515077590, ISBN 3-515-07759-6.

• Welwei, Karl-Wilhelm (2004), Sparta. Aufstieg und Niedergang einer antiken Großmacht, Klett-Cotta Verlag, Stuttgart 2004.

Proposal

Unless there are any objections, I intend to rewrite the "Name" section, and rename this article to "Spartan Assembly". Paul August ☎ 13:23, 3 November 2025 (UTC)

Comments?

Do you have other recent sources that favour apella? It seems to be found only in German sources. If you have English speaking sources that use apella, then go ahead with your suggestion of Spartan assembly. Otherwise, I prefer keeping ecclesia/ekklesia, as it's difficult to go against such a streak of distinguished English-speaking scholars (Wage-Gery, Ste-Croix, Andrewes, Cartledge). T8612 (talk) 01:58, 4 November 2025 (UTC)

@T8612: Thanks for your reply. Not naming our article "Ekklesia", is not to go against such a streak of distinguished English-speaking scholars. Rather it is simply being conservative and not taking a position on the name. As for English sources that use apella, there are, of course, many such sources prior to Ste. Croix (see for example Ehrenberg 1968, pp. 31, p. 383 n. 14 383 n. 14, as noted above) There is also Brill's New Pauly, s.v. Apella, Apellai (albeit also authored by Karl-Wilhelm Welwei).

Do you have any objections to the text I've written above? That is my current thinking as to how I would rewrite the "Name" section.

Paul August ☎ 03:12, 4 November 2025 (UTC)

For some other uses of apella after 1980, see this JSTOR search. Paul August ☎ 13:06, 4 November 2025 (UTC)

@T8612: I know you probably haven't yet seen my replies above. In the meantime I've done some more reasearch, and I've decided to go ahead and rewrite the "Name section". We can, of course, discuss any issues you (or anyone else) have with that section. Paul August ☎ 15:03, 12 November 2025 (UTC)

@Paul August Sorry for the late reply. I think it gives a bit too much undue weight to apella. I would say something more like "the majority of scholars favour ecclesia, but some still argue for apella." T8612 (talk) 13:44, 13 November 2025 (UTC)

@T8612: As for: the majority of scholars favour ecclesia, but some still argue for apella, It seems to me that the new section says the same thing. It says that after 1972:

scholarly consensus shifted in favor of 'Ekklesia'. More recently, Welwei 1997, 2000, and 2004 has revived the dispute, advocating in favor of 'Apella'

In fact this wording seems to me to give less weight to 'Apella' than your wording: "consensus" being stronger than "majority", and "one" scholar verses "some". Paul August ☎ 15:33, 13 November 2025 (UTC)

@T8612: Based upon continuing research, including other recent sources that favour apella, I've decided to go ahead and do the rename. Here are my current reasons for doing so:

1. Naming our article on the Spartan assembly "Ekklesia" asserts—in Wikipedia's voice—that the name of the assembly was, in fact, the Ekklesia.
2. As the article now asserts, the name of the assembly "is disputed":
   1. Schulz 2009, p. 335 n. 9 (cited in the article): "Ob die Volksversammlung in Sparta Apella oder Ekklesia hieß, ist umstritten" ("Whether the popular assembly in Sparta was called Apella or Ekklesia is disputed.")
   2. Luther 2006, p. 74: "Wie aber war die offizielle Bezeichnung der Volksversammlung mi archaischen und klassischen Sparta? nI der modernen Forschung haben sich hierzu zwei unterschiedliche Ansichten herausgebildet." ("But what was the official name of the popular assembly in archaic and classical Sparta? Modern research has led to two different views on this.")
3. Karl-Wilhelm Welwei has argued repeatedly (1997, 2000, 2004) and vociferously in support of Apella.
4. Other scholars have—post Ste-Croix 1972—continued to use the name Apella:
   1. Brill's New Pauly, s.v. Apella, Apellai (2006)
   2. Ogden 1994, p. 91.
   3. Google Scholar search
   4. JSTOR search
5. Argument ex silentio:
   1. Esu 2024 (Esu, Alberto, Divided Power in Ancient Greece: Decision-Making and Institutions in the Classical and Hellenistic Polis, Oxford University Press, 2024. ISBN 9780191992056. doi:10.1093/oso/9780198883951.001.0001.), which Paul Cartledge has describe to me as "the most recent, authoritative book on decision-making in Sparta", does not mention the name Ekklesia, but instead refers to the Spartan Assembly everywhere using the agnostic "assembly".
   2. So too Andrewes 1967, pp. 17–18 n. 3: "I use throughout the neutral term [emphasis added] 'assembly', though believing that its Spartan name was ekklesia."
6. Conversations with Paul Cartledge, Alberto Esu (see above), and Nigel Kennell, author of Spartans: A New History, Wiley Blackwell, 2010. ISBN 978-1-4051-2999-2.

Paul August ☎ 13:47, 14 November 2025 (UTC)

All right, I have no objection. T8612 (talk) 01:49, 17 November 2025 (UTC)