Talk:Shawarma

This page is subject to the extended confirmed restriction related to the Arab-Israeli conflict.

Riots over mentions of Israel

Not sure if I may be the only one, but there had been on and off edit warrings due to mentions of Israel. I personally think that anyone who tries erasing Israel's information need a straight warning or maybe even a block. Transporting the Israel-Palestine conflict here is certainly unethical. ShawarmaFan07 (talk) 16:42, 8 October 2024 (UTC)—  Blocked sockpuppet of LDas12345, see investigation.

This page has been a source of ethno-nationalist edit warring for years. I'm afraid that's nothing new. If it gets bad, you can go to WP:RFPP and request the page be protected to prevent vandalism, but mostly there's enough people watching the page to just revert it on sight. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 12:31, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

The associated cuisine has listed Arab cuisine for quite a while now, see for example this or this this version. Also that bit is covered by ARBPIA, and @ShawarmaFan07 you may not edit material related to the Arab-Israeli conflict due to not having 500 edits. nableezy - 19:20, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

@Nableezy I'm not sure what you are saying about the Arab-Israel conflict. I did not edit that article and I never did. ShawarmaFan07 (talk) 19:46, 14 October 2024 (UTC)—  Blocked sockpuppet of LDas12345, see investigation.

You may not edit material related to the Arab-Israeli conflict anywhere on Wikipedia except to make edit requests on talk pages, please see the notification on your user talk page. nableezy - 19:47, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

It's in the israeli cuisine article. Also why aren't the turkish and hebrew names mentioned if it's from the Middle East/Levant? (Not sure what the difference between the origin and region entries is) Cirelius (talk) 16:54, 7 November 2025 (UTC)

The Malgoum of it all

The Bahraini Shawarma variant, the Malgoum, is noticeably missing from this article. Especially egregious considering all the other including National variants.

Unfortunately, I've been unable to find a suitable source to reference for the existence of the Malgoum, however, upon a google search there is a litany of youtube videos and wordpress articles describing the Malgoum. It is even mentioned in the "Bahraini cuisine article on wikipedia. From first hand knowledge, I can also say it exists, and is a popular variant of the Shawarma in Bahrain, and also Saudi Arabia.

What can be done? Greenhill22 (talk) 03:39, 16 July 2025 (UTC)

Other included National variants, was what I intended to type. Greenhill22 (talk) 03:40, 16 July 2025 (UTC)

Is it mentioned somewhere what exactly should go into the "associated cuisine" section? It seems inconsistent to have cuisine articles mentioning this dish without it appearing here. Cirelius (talk) 17:06, 7 November 2025 (UTC)

Thoughts on adding the Nigerian version variant here

It came from regular sharwama traditions introduced to Lagos, Nigeria, but spawned into a more distinct variant made most commonly with coleslaw, a cream sauce and hotdogs as well as chicken and beef. Im thinking if its best added or creating a seperate page for it. Dolpina (talk) 09:13, 5 January 2026 (UTC)

Sure go ahead. Mention Nigeria in it to make it less redundant. Lubdhak 972729282 (talk) 09:17, 9 January 2026 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. I went on to do that. Dolpina (talk) 15:31, 9 January 2026 (UTC)

Etymology Correction: Shāhvār instead of Çevirme 7 April 2026

Description of suggested change: "Corrected etymological error: The term shāwarmā originates from the Ottoman Turkish 'shāhvār' (regal/worthy of a Shah), not from 'çevirme'. Added linguistic context regarding the Ottoman culinary tradition and the '-ma' suffix."

Diff:

−

The name shāwarmā in Arabic is a rendering of the term çevirme in Turkish ([tʃeviɾˈme], lit. 'turning; hence, roughly synonymous to döner in this context'), referring to rotisserie.[12]

+

"The etymology of shāwarmā is frequently misrepresented as a rendering of the Turkish term çevirme (turning). However, this claim is linguistically inconsistent. The name is actually derived from the Ottoman Turkish term shāhvār (شاهوار), meaning 'worthy of a Shah' or 'princely/kingly' (referring to a dish or sauce fit for a sultan). The suffix -ma is an Ottoman Turkish verbal noun-forming suffix, indicating that the preparation itself is 'made worthy of a king.' Therefore, shāwarmā represents a high-status culinary tradition from the Ottoman court rather than a simple description of a cooking technique."

~2026-21503-91 (talk) 21:24, 7 April 2026 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want made. Skynxnex (talk) 22:00, 7 April 2026 (UTC)

I am providing the following evidence from official lexicographical and historical sources to support the 'Shahvar' etymology:

Ottoman Turkish Evidence for 'Shahvar' (Şehvar):

Definition: 'Worthy of a Shah, princely, magnificent.'

Source: https://lugatim.com/s/%C5%9Fehvar

Linguistic Distinction from 'Shawt' (Turning/Circuit):

The claim that 'Shaw' is related to turning is linguistically flawed. The Ottoman/Arabic term for a circuit (e.g., around the Kaaba) is 'Shawt', which ends with a 'T' and is a distinct root.

Source: https://lugatim.com/s/%C5%9Favt

Suffix '-ma' in Ottoman Turkish:

The '-ma' suffix is a well-documented Ottoman Turkish suffix used to create nouns (Verbal Noun), confirming 'Shahvar-ma' as a structured term.

Source (Search '-ma' suffix): https://lugatim.com/s/ma

Historical Presence in Ottoman Royalty:

The term was a high-status title in the Ottoman court, as seen in the name of Princess Dürrüşehvar Sultan, which reinforces the culinary use of the term for 'royal' quality dishes.

Source: https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%BCrr%C3%BC%C5%9Fehvar_Sultan

I request these links be reviewed to correct the inaccurate 'turning' (çevirme) etymology currently listed. ~2026-21503-91 (talk) 11:12, 8 April 2026 (UTC)

I was eat Shawarma in Konya. When I asked the seller what Shawarma was, he would say 'it's the sauce'. Unlike the Döner kebab type you've described here, Shawarma is just the sauce itself. ~2026-21503-91 (talk) 16:31, 8 April 2026 (UTC)

 Not done: This is original research and also reads as if it were AI-generated. The etymology in the article needs to be based on what the sources explicitly say it is, not on your own conclusions from piecing together sources (or asking ChatGPT to do it for you). Day Creature (talk) 16:14, 9 April 2026 (UTC)

English is not my native language, brother. I use AI for translation so that you can understand it correctly. ~2026-21503-91 (talk) 18:18, 9 April 2026 (UTC)

I am explaining etymologically which root the word comes from. In my native language, Turkish, this word has this meaning. ~2026-21503-91 (talk) 18:26, 9 April 2026 (UTC)

“It is written as follows in Wikipedia: ‘What makes it different from doner kebab is the sauce added inside.’ ( "döner kebaptan" farkını yaratan ise içerisine konulan sostan kaynaklanmaktadır.) The claim about the sauce is valid.” ~2026-21503-91 (talk) 19:26, 9 April 2026 (UTC)

The claim put forward by Wikipedia (https://tr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%C5%9Eavurma&oldid=13980057) in the page at the provided link is nothing more than a claim that violates the “No original research” rule. In contrast, the correct words I have presented etymologically are taken directly and exactly from dictionaries.

The words “şahvar” and “-ma” are already attested terms in Ottoman Turkish.

Şahvar : Worthy of a Shah, princely, magnificent.(source: https://lugatim.com/s/%C5%9Fehvar)

Suffix '-ma' in Ottoman Turkish:

The '-ma' suffix is a well-documented Ottoman Turkish suffix used to create nouns (Verbal Noun), (source: https://lugatim.com/s/ma)

For the purpose of reminding the editors, the AI-generated English translation of Wikipedia’s so-called claim is as follows:

"Etymology

The origin of the word comes from the Turkish word çevirme (meaning “rotation/turning”). Just like doner kebab, it can be said—based on this linguistic feature—that its place of origin is Anatolia; what distinguishes it from doner kebab, however, is the sauce added inside. Turks introduce the doner they make all over the world as “kebab,” whereas Arabs present doner as “shawarma” and claim that the origin of kebab belongs to them. In English it is called “shawarma,” and in French “chawarma.” However, from a linguistic point of view, the word “shawarma” is borrowed from Turkish.

The Proto-Turkic word çevür gives the modern Turkish çevir/çevirmek (“to turn”), while in Azerbaijani it is çevirmək. If we write out all the phonemes of the Turkish word çevirme, it would be rendered as “tchevirme” = “tshevirme.”

In Arabic, there is no “e” vowel; instead, “a” or “i” is used.

Example: Arabic only has the vowel phonemes a/â, u/û, i/î. Sounds such as “e,” “ı,” “ö,” “o,” and “ü,” which exist in Turkish, do not exist in Arabic.

In Arabic, the “ç” (tch/tsh) sound does not exist; instead, “ş” (sh) is used.

Example: “Çeçen” becomes “shishan” (الشيشان), and the country Chad is pronounced “thu-shad” (تشاد). Therefore, çevirme becomes “şavirma” in Arabic.

In Arabic, the “v” sound also does not exist; instead, “w” or “f” is used.

Example: Warsaw is rendered as “warsuw” (وارسو), and Venezuela as “fnuzuila” (فنزويلا).

For all these reasons, the purely Turkish word çevirme is used by Arabs as “shawarma” to refer to doner kebab."'' (source : https://tr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%C5%9Eavurma&oldid=13980057)

As can be seen, the unfounded and inaccurate claims belong to Wikipedia.

As can be seen, I present the word directly from the dictionary on an etymological basis. However, the Wikipedia website continues to deliberately mislead readers with claims it has essentially made up.

In this case, it is a natural conclusion to regard Wikipedia as an unreliable source. ~2026-21503-91 (talk) 23:00, 9 April 2026 (UTC)

Note: I've reopened this since I lack the language skills to evaluate the sources you provided but my guess is, at most, we should include both potential histories, depending on how reliable the provided sources are. Skynxnex (talk) 16:06, 9 April 2026 (UTC)

Stated origin appears to be WP:OR

EnglishCSMajor seems to insist on replacing "Turkey" with the terms "Ottoman Empire", "Levant" and "Middle East" as the stated origin for shawarma in the lead, infobox and history section (this revert). But it does not look like the cited sources support these changes:

• "Shawarma, popular street food in the Middle East, which originated in Turkey..." "Encyclopedia Britannica".
• "Shawarma is thinly sliced roasted seasoned lamb or turkey wrapped in flatbread. Origin: Turkey" Marks, Gil (2010). Encyclopedia of Jewish Food. John Wiley & Sons.
• "Even though Shawarma originated in Turkey..." Salloum, Habeeb (2012). Arabian Nights Cookbook: From Lamb Kebabs to Baba Ghanouj, Delicious Homestyle Arabian Cooking. Tuttle Publishing. p. 66.
• Another reliable source making the same attribution, though not yet cited in the article: "Shawarma originated in Turkey, and was adapted to Israeli preferences." Ashkenazi, Michael (2020). Food Cultures of Israel: Recipes, Customs, and Issues. Bloomsbury Publishing. p. 162.

On the contrary, the Ottoman Empire appears to not be mentioned in the cited sources at all, while references to the Levant and Middle East only seem to relate to the spread and adaptation of shawarma in different countries, the cultures it is associated with and the regions it is popular in rather than the origin:

• "Shawarma, a popular street food in the Middle East...", "The vertical spit technique is an old one, though the innovation of the rolled style is attributed to a 19th-century Turkish butcher named İskender, whose shop in the city of Bursa offered grilled meats (...) This döner kebab, or “rolled kebab,” was adopted in neighbouring countries: in Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan it came to be known in Arabic as shawārmā, a loanword from the Turkish çevirme, or “turn,” and in Greece as gyro, with the same meaning." "Encyclopedia Britannica".
• "Shawarma, from the Tutkish çevirme (rotating), is the Arabic name for what the Turks call döner kebabs (döner means "one that turns". This dish originated in Anatolia around the 1830s, after the invention of a mechanical vertical rotisserie, also called a cone tower, and soon emerged as the favorite Middle Eastern dish fast food / street food, prepared fresh to order." Marks, Gil (2010). Encyclopedia of Jewish Food. John Wiley & Sons.
• "Shawarma is famous across all the Middle East", "Even though Shawarma originated in Turkey and has been popular in the Greater Syria for decades, in the United Arab Emirates it has been perfected, based upon Arab Gulf tastes, no doubt because of the intense competiton with foods from other lands." Salloum, Habeeb (2012). Arabian Nights Cookbook: From Lamb Kebabs to Baba Ghanouj, Delicious Homestyle Arabian Cooking. Tuttle Publishing. p. 66.
• "Shawarma is a popular Levantine Arab specialty" Matter, Philip (2004). Encyclopedia of the Modern Middle East & North Africa: D-K. Macmillan Reference USA. p. 840.

It is clear that none of the cited sources make statements of shawarma originating in the Ottoman Empire, Levant or Middle East, therefore substituting "Turkey" with those terms is not really justified by what the cited sources consistently state (that is, "originated in Turkey") and appears to be original research. For that reason, attributing "Turkey" as the stated origin of shawarma in the lead, infobox and history section appears to be the most accurate and there are absolutely no reasons for removing it as it directly reflects the sources. If there are additional sources on alternate origins of shawarma, it will be more appropriate to incorporate them separately to maintain verifiability and a neutral point of view. S.sveh (talk) 18:35, 14 April 2026 (UTC)

It originates from Türkiye. It is mentioned in Evliya Çelebi's Seyahatname (Book of Travels), my Arab brother. But in Türkiye, shawarma is known as a sauce. (Shawarma means 'worthy of shahs'.) At least that’s how it was known in Konya back in 1996. ~2026-21503-91 (talk) 10:21, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

Request for a section on Pronunciation

There's debate about whether to pronounce the first 'a' in 'shawarma'. Could someone add a section describing how the pronunciation varies regionally? Thank you. Mebden (talk) 16:37, 4 May 2026 (UTC)