Talk:Septimius Severus

Berber descent

Blocked socks (Lobus and Zayyanid56774849) R Prazeres (talk) 21:17, 20 March 2025 (UTC) The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

user:Remsense, I'm trying to understand what's faulty about the edits of User:Lubatchovsky, as you signaled here. I mean, the DUE part is one thing (and I don't see why in this case his partly Berber heritage would not be relevant), but there's also this by User:Soidling, "not peer reviewed scholarly source". You reverted to that edit without explaining so I think you agree with that assessment, but thenn there's the sourcing: the two sources cited in Soidling's revert seem to be decent to me. Soidling, can you explain? Drmies (talk) 14:18, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Oh, that was a total mistake on my part. Frankly, I do not know how I did that. Apologies, thanks for pointing it out. Remsense ‥ 论 14:20, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

The sources provided are all scholarly articles from 1967, 2001, 2021, 2022, in particular is a peer reviewed and discusses the clear origins of Severus and the severan dynasty very clearly. @Remsense has allowed himself to remove well sourced material from 3 articles Severan dynasty, Septimius Severus and Geta (emperor). this correlates to Wikipedia:NPOV bias editing and disruptive editing. Lobus (talk) 14:59, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Lobus, let's not jump to accusations immediately, thanks. No need for bold print either. Drmies (talk) 15:58, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Well, unfortunately we have to toss out Boutammina (2020) immediately, as it was clearly published at an on-demand publishing house, meaning it is self-published and not a reliable source. Likewise, Éditions du Rocher does not appear to be a publishing house with any particular experience or editorial expertise in the field of history or ethnology, or really non-fiction generally, and Bernard Lugan appears to be a figure whose academic scruples are the matter of serious dispute. That leaves Comevin and Arnaud-Lindet. Two sources is clearly better than one, but the fact remains to my eyes that the vast majority of sources I've seen do not describe the Severans as Berber, but rather as Punic or generally as North African.

I would prefer you reflect for a moment, as your tone has gotten suddenly confrontational in a way I don't feel is deserved—you are not entitled to have your additions published on the encyclopedia unless they conform to its content policies. This is essentially BRD, an extremely common cycle where additions are scrutinized when they are not immediately accepted by other editors. Your tone shift is especially concerning given the recent IP reverts, which I now feel I have to directly ask whether they were you. That would be totally unacceptable sockpuppetry. Remsense ‥ 论 15:21, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

User:Remsense, let's leave out the sock accusations, okay? I understand why you thought about it, but I can tell you there is no ground for the assumption. Thanks. Drmies (talk) 16:01, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

If you would like to be a Wikipedia:Third opinion to avoid escalation of the problem, I would agree to do so If @Remsense also agrees to do so. Lobus (talk) 16:07, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Sorting out scholarly sources is [[WP:NPOV]], you must learn how to be neutral when it comes to sources especially those from scholars in the universities of Michigan and the University of Paris, self-published sources of Scholars that undergo Editorial process can be included as reliable. if the issue at hand is the dubuous nature of 2 sources according to your claim then why undo the whole thing without keeping 2 reliable sources and asking for alternative sources for the "unreliable" sources ? the matter at hand is a clear [[WP:NPOV]]. Bernard Lugan is a french historian who has underwent serious work on shedding light on the roman dynasties of the period and it is again another [[WP:NPOV]] that you consider his works dubiousas he does not reflect your sentiments on the origins of the dynasty in what you call "Punic of Origin" without providing your own sources, if you still claim that they are punic, share your sources.

As in regards of my tone, I am very calm about the matter, from your comment 1 on my talk page you emphasized that the problem with the articles is MOS:ETHNICITY which stipulates that the ethnic origins of a character should not be put in the lead of the article if not relevant, so I moved the ethnic sources outside the lead 2 and you still undid the edit, which showcases a lack of collaboration on your part, it is apparent that you do not want the information added whatsoever, this is indicated by a series of removals of information across several articles, although your behaviour is dubious I am still engaging with talk on the matter, other editors have made it clear that your undoing of added information is opened also in another talk page but ofcourse it all falls on deaf ears.

also now accusations that I am using a different IP address are serious, the matter will be settled here otherwise the case will be escalated as per normal procedure if you do not want to cooperate, so I am asking you for the final time to share your reliable sources on the punic origins of the dynasty otherwise things will take a turn. Lobus (talk) 15:41, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

listen there should be no debate , septimius was a libyan man described as 'libyan by race' by casius dio he did not ideifnty as lebanese and the people who claim he is lebanese are very uneducated as even if septimius did have a lineage going back to phoneicans , carthage gained independence from phonecia 700 years before severus was born! Zayyanid56774849 (talk) 13:34, 1 February 2025 (UTC)

This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

If you're not the IP, you would have no problem restoring the previous status quo version of the article as policy presently requires. If you can't, there's not much I can really do but treat it as you leveraging a fait accompli on the matter, which is technically indistinguishable from you being them in practice. Please restore the consensus version of the articles, or I will have to take this to WP:ANI, given all the ancillary context of you turning immediately to accuse me of bad faith for starting a completely ordinary WP:BRD process. You are not entitled to have your additions published against consensus. Remsense ‥ 论 15:44, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

You did not follow Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle and skipped steps in that article to revert. If you would like to escalate the matter please do so as you have completely destroyed all attempts to resolve the issue with civility. Lobus (talk) 15:50, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

You were bold, I reverted, we're meant to now discuss. This is your final opportunity to restore the consensus version of the articles so we can properly do that before I have to seek outside remedy, unfortunately. Remsense ‥ 论 15:53, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

• OK stop it, both of you. Thanks. Let's talk content and sources, not the other things. Drmies (talk) 16:04, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  this is my initial request from many moons ago, if @Remsense wants to resolve the issue he needs to present peer reviewed scholarly sources for discussion Lobus (talk) 16:08, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  My nerves are already a bit shot. I repeat the onus is on you to prove it is the mainstream view, not mine to prove it is not. If Arnaud-Lindet, Lugan, and Comevin are the only representatives of this opinion, then it's a flat no.

  Most reliable sources present Septimius and his dynasty either as Punic, or merely as North African, and it's not close. A search of Google Books, Google Scholar, or another academic database shows the paucity there, so I will only briefly collate given I am now unsure I can convince anyone of anything anywayRemsense ‥ 论 16:51, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  None of the mentioned publications are peer reviewed

  Birley, Anthony Richard (1999). Septimius Severus. London: Psychology Press. p. ix : states clearly the libyan ethnic background of septimius severus and states so very clealy in the page, therefore your own source contradicts you.

  Birley, Anthony R. (2016). "Septimius Severus, Lucius, Roman emperor, 193–211 CE": another source by the same author establishing the libyan lineage of Septimius severus again another source contradicts your claims.

  Jerary, M. Tahar (2008). "SEPTIMIUS SEVERUS THE ROMAN EMPEROR": in his book the author mentions that the inscriptions found at Lepcis Magna were Libyan, Latin and Punic, the author did not specify from which ethnic background Severus was besides the fact that he was African and a Local.

  Barnes, T. D. (1967). "The Family and Career of Septimius Severus". Historia: Zeitschrift für Alte Geschichte.: here the author only mentions the "Africanness" of Septimius as well as his origins from Lepcis as a native but no more about his ethnic background, she calls on examining his ancestry but does not state it whatsoever.

  Ermatinger James : the publisher ABC-CLIO primarily targets educational and general audiences, and its publications are not typically categorized as peer-reviewed academic works, the publication on the page mentions he spoke Punic, Greek, and Latin, the latter with a slight accent.

  Barett: He mentions that Severus has a Punic background as do my sources, Severus spoke Punic well and latin with a punic accent as per my sources but the author does not recognize severus as Punic, most Libyans at the time spoke punic as well as their native language. his work is one of the only few non peer-reviewed works by the publishing house.

  Edelmann-Singer, B. (2024). "Nothing New in the East?": talks about his ability to speak punic but nothing about his ethnic background. her publication

  In conclusion:

  you have not read any of the sources you provided, you have not examined the writing within the publications and you did not bother to know anything about the publications or the authors themselves, the publications go against you to instate the Libyan Ethnic roots of Septimius Severus, while other publications merely mention his ability to speak Greek latin and Punic but does not dive into his ethnic roots, other publications mention him just as a native of north africa. Lobus (talk) 18:33, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  This came over to WP:RS/N and from my review of the sources, one of the four is unambiguously a reliable source, one is probably reliable but is quite aged, one is definitely not a WP:RS because it's WP:SPS and one is likely reliable but appears only to make passing mention of Septimus. I recommended that the reliable source be used with attribution and in accordance with WP:DUE. Having made that recommendation I'm going to put this on my watchlist for a while.

  With that said I want to make two things clear:

  1. The sources I reviewed are sufficient to include an attributed claim that some scholars believe Septimus was of Berber descent.
  2. They are insufficient to say in wiki voice that he was of Berber descent. Simonm223 (talk) 18:34, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  I would also recommend that people pay attention to WP:AGF and WP:NPA. This is a general and non-directed recommendation. Simonm223 (talk) 18:36, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  And yours are insufficient to claim septimius was lebanese! He was a libyan ok and libyans today can claim the history fair? Zayyanid56774849 (talk) 13:36, 1 February 2025 (UTC)

  None of the mentioned publications are peer reviewed—I forgot to reply to this because it was such a confusing thing to read. The journal articles are peer reviewed, and I mixed in tertiary sources intentionally because the point was to demonstrate characterizations across the available body of RS; to help in judging DUEness of certain characterizations is one of the primary things we use teritary sources for. [H]ere the author only mentions the "Africanness" of Septimius [...] but no more about his ethnic background is precisely reflective of my point, which was not merely to prefer Punic over Berber, but to point out other labels (e.g. merely "African") or the absence or even rejection in discussion of ethnological discourse where one may otherwise expect. This has been my position the entire time. Remsense ‥ 论 22:48, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

  I understand, we both agree that Septimius severus is from North africa, from your sources they mention him as a "Local", "Native"...etc but do not specify what which is an issue, I have taken an extra step and posted more recent peer reviewed publications by historians that mention directly the Berber lineage of Septimius and the dynasty without being ambiguous, if you would like to look into the newly added sources please do, if you are not happy about the term berber please feel free to use Libyco-punic or Libyan instead. Lobus (talk) 22:54, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

  but the thing is if casius dio said he was 'libyan by race' ,its on us ttothen find out who are the libyan people ? Who are the race of libya, its clear all the natives of libya were berbers lol , no one disputes this in my view I have no doubt septimius was em81 haplogroup berber like north african arabized today but was just punicised Zayyanid56774849 (talk) 13:38, 1 February 2025 (UTC)

  It is not WP policy to make wiki-voice statements over contested claims from classical period primary sources. We describe conflicts neutrally, we don't take such a strident POV. Simonm223 (talk) 21:50, 2 February 2025 (UTC)

References

Lobus, I think I'm here mostly as an admin, trying to stop an edit war and to prevent this from becoming all too personal, but I'm also an academic and I know a bit about sources. I'll give you my opinion: no, the Boutammina book is out: it's published on demand, and it would never hold up at WP:RSN, though you are welcome to try. I can't even find easily who the author is and what their affiliation is. The other books are, I suppose, fine, in general, but that's the problem: they are general histories and in a case of conflict like we have here, I think most Wikipedians (and certainly most academics) would agree that we need to see up to date specialized studies/discussions, from journal articles or monographs that are really on the subject of this article. I also think that Lugan is problematic. Perhaps the best thing for you to do is to propose these sources at WP:RSN. Drmies (talk) 16:11, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

My sources are valid under WP:RS as they meet the standards for verifiability and reliability where perhaps if I had to concede maybe one source could be taken as somewhat unreliable in the worst case. In a dispute where the opposing party provides no sources, there is no justification for holding my edits to an even higher standard without evidence to contest them, to share monographs and journal articles is for a user who provides high quality counter sources to prove their point. While I do welcome discussions about the quality of sources, Wikipedia policy dictates that content with valid sources should remain unless explicitly refuted with equally reliable and contradictory sources. I suggest the opposing editor provide such evidence before questioning my edits. Lobus (talk) 16:27, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't really want to delve into "Punic": one thing at a time. Two editors have reverted you because, they claim, your sources aren't strong enough; the tit-for-tat of "neither are yours" is not productive. What you can do, as I suggested, is take this to WP:RSN and seek consensus for a. the quality of the sources and perhaps b. the appropriateness of those sources to support this content. If editors on RSN agree with you (on both points, preferably), then you pretty much have a green light. Conversely, you can challenge the "Punic" thing, for starters here on the talk page, but PLEASE do that separately. I have some practical experience in these matters and I'm offering you a path that is most likely to not conflate the issues and to not lead to more antagonism. Drmies (talk) 16:48, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your output @Drmies, will do. I am not arguing for the punic origins of Severus just his Libyan berber origins and his dynasty. if the other user wants to establish the punic genetic roots of Severus he is free to do so. Lobus (talk) 17:17, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

@Lubatchovsky, I will ask you again to self-revert. The above discussion is not what consensus for your additions looks like. Remsense ‥ 论 22:34, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

I do not mind if you edit the article as per the agreed concensus Lobus (talk) 22:35, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

• Comment. I have not read all the discussion in here and Severan Dynasty, but I agree with the others' objections; the sources added by Lubatchovsky are too weak. Their authors lack the expertise needed for this particular point, although they may be relevant for other subjects on Wikipedia. I have checked the two best RS we have on Septimius: The Cambridge Ancient History (vol. 12) and AR Birley's The African Emperor, as well as Anne Daguet-Gagey's Septime Sévère: Rome, l'Afrique et l'Orient. None calls him a Berber or says he had Berber origins. The CAH says (p. 3): "Severus was born in Lepcis Magna in Africa in 145. Lepcis had been a Roman colony since 110, and although the family of the Septimii was of Punic extraction, it is likely that it had enjoyed Roman citizenship at least from the time of Vespasian. I think that seals it. (As an aside, the CAH should be used in the WP article, it's a great miss). T8612 (talk) 01:20, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you for your reply, I completely agree with you concerning publications on backgrounds concerning Septimius Severus, but you are scrutinized as much as me for bringing Cambridge ancient history volume 12 CAH as a source from 1970 exactly how I did for bringing up Lugan as a source as it is considered Wikipedia:AGEMATTERS, it is considered outdated material, please do not jump into conclusions concerning our debate so quickly without first considering the different aspects of our talk.

  That being said, I am going through the process to identify the Libyan or Berber or Libyco-punic origins of septimius severus, there are multiple publications mentionning all his origins clearly, I have verified ability to use the source and have added it as per suggestion from Simonm, I recently added updated high quality peer reviewed articles from historians who actively work on Roman North africa to the article of the highest reliability I could find.

  Concerning birley please read his publications first before making claims about his work as he is establishing the Berber libyan background of Septimius severus and the dynasty in the following works:

  Birley, Anthony Richard (1999). Septimius Severus. London: Psychology Press. p. ix : states clearly the libyan ethnic background of septimius severus and states so very clealy in the page

  Birley, Anthony R. (2016). "Septimius Severus, Lucius, Roman emperor, 193–211 CE": another source by the same author establishing the libyan lineage of Septimius severus

  I am sure many of you are against the Berber background of Septimius Severus as this Roman emperor of humble african origins is against the euro-centrist viewpoint of historical revisionism but please the works of the authors that you mention before posting about them. I am sincerely just asking everyone to read the publications. Lobus (talk) 01:39, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

  I've reverted your recent changes as WP:UNDUE. I will restore an appropriate insertion from your source when I have time later today. Simonm223 (talk) 12:50, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you, I am looking forward to see the final version. Lobus (talk) 12:58, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

  I retained all your citations although this may be over-linking. I cannot access all five of the texts so I can't say for certain which are best. However please note that this indicates some scholars say he's Berber without asserting, in wiki voice, that he absolutely was. Simonm223 (talk) 14:41, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

  If I personally had to decide which are the best I would say that the famous french historians "Le Glay, Marcel; Voisin, Jean-Louis; Le Bohec, Yann" which specialize in roman North africa of the publication (2016) are the highest source for reference since they are not mere scholars but known historians who are specialists in the field and engage in archeological work. Followed by others from recent to oldest.

  In regards to the Berber ancestry of the historic personality, claims mentioned in passing are still facts supported by experts, per Wikipedia's due weight policy (WP:DUE), the significance of an information in the context of a publication is measured often by how frequently and broadly it is discussed in the body of reliable literature. This means that even a "passing mention" in a reliable source does not make the claim any less valid, it only affects the weight and tone of how the information is presented.

  From what I personally know as an avid book reader is that the extent to which an author emphasizes a fact often depends on the goals of the work, If the origins of Septimius Severus were previously a subject of debate, it is likely as we saw from the first source I used from 1957 that was deemed to be Wikipedia:AGE MATTERS that earlier works addressed this topic in greater depth. However, as the evidence accumulated and consensus emerged, more recent texts might simply acknowledge his Berber ancestry without much discussion, thats why in the extent of a book about this powerful Roman emperor, scholars and historians avoid over repeating well established details. For the historic personality in discussion, they include discussions on the Severan dynasty's influence on the Roman Empire rather than a deep dive into his Berber origins.

  Let me sum it up further, the claim about Severus’s Berber ancestry, even if not emphasized, remains notable due to its inclusion in works authored by highly reputable scholars and its relevance to the topic of Roman North Africa, historians as such who write extensive publications of several hundred pages often write comprehensive works that include multiple facts and details, many of which may not be heavily emphasized, so dismissing claims because they lack emphasis would invalidate a large portion of historical books.

  Please let me know if I am getting it wrong or if this is a violation of Wikipedia rules, althought I am able to offer publications regarding Septimius Severus's berber origins, I am unable to control the level of emphasis within these publications. If you require more high quality publications mentioning berber origins of septimius severus I am more than happy to provide more as some members who wanted to dispute the berber origins of Septimius have in fact accidentally provided more valuable sources mentioning his berber origins in works such as Birley:

  -Birley, Anthony Richard (1999). Septimius Severus. London: Psychology Press. p. ix : states clearly the libyan ethnic background of septimius severus and states so very clealy in the page

  -Birley, Anthony R. (2016). "Septimius Severus, Lucius, Roman emperor, 193–211 CE": another source by the same author establishing the libyan lineage of Septimius severus

  Lobus (talk) 17:28, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

  The "born in Libya" part is generally agreed upon by all scholars. But there were lots of people in Roman Libya, not just Berbers. That's where the academic consensus is unclear. Basically "from Libya" != "Berber". Simonm223 (talk) 17:37, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

  I beg to differ, to prove my point let me present you with Birley's work for example from 1972 when Septimius Severus's origins were a topic of hot debate, the author dives deep into the berber origins of Septimius Severus citing scholars, historians and academic works. let me present you with the work :

  Anthony Birley citing a scholar says that the roman emperor Septimius himself claimed "He is Libyan of the libyan Nomads"

  Byzantine Writer Tsetzes says speaking about septimius "for he too was Libyan by race"

  On another page he says that natives of the region are Libyan not Punic.

  and so on and so fourth, I am unable to cite the entire work word for word but this proves my point, that the relevance of his berber origins were a hot topic of debate once but this is no longer the case as it is now an established fact !

  Libya and Leptis Magna at the time was part of Africa Preconsularis, there was not a Libya province in Leptis Magna. the Term Libyan here is ethnic not provincial. Lobus (talk) 17:51, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

  The Cambridge Ancient History volume about Septimius was published in 2005, not 1970. Regarding Birley, you misinterpret what he says. "Libyan" does not mean Berber, it is your interpretation. Please stop your POV pushing in this article. T8612 (talk) 00:17, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

References

Berbers are not Black.

If Septimius Severus was a Berber, he would not be Black. ~2025-36663-42 (talk) 19:52, 26 November 2025 (UTC)

First provincial emperor

The article identifies Septimius Severus as the first provincial emperor; but the article on Trajan proposes him as the first provincial emperor instead. It would be good to establish some criteria to determine this issue. TheDean (talk) 19:10, 19 May 2026 (UTC)

of provincial BLOOD - all the others had been Romans, just born in Roman colonies - if Severus was indeed of Punic blood - which is still debated among scholars. HammerFilmFan (talk) 17:43, 7 August 2026 (UTC)

troop losses as factor in start of the decline

Should have a paragraph about the large numbers of legionaries lost in the battles with Niger, and to a smaller extent with Albinus. It took a generation to replace and retain such losses at a minimum, and the army was never re-stocked to make up for the losses. Such destruction of the legions would go on in inter-nicene wars between various emperors for the next 200 years, sapping Rome's strength and discipline that was needed against the northern barbarians and the eastern powers. Several sources are out there - for those involved, chop chop! HammerFilmFan (talk) 17:42, 7 August 2026 (UTC)