Talk:Second Aliyah

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Top importance?

I think this article should become high importance. While the Second Aliyah practically built the Yishuv, it's still not a core topic of Israel. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 17:10, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Role of Zionism

I don't understand the logic behind this sentence: "The Zionist ideology played a minor factor for Jewish emigration to Palestine as indicate by the proportionally small number of immigrants compared to those who went to the US." The only way this makes sense is if we assume all Jews to have been Zionists. Then we could rightly say that although there were (e.g.) 2 million Zionists who emigrated, only 50,000 came to Palestine, ergo Zionism played only a small role in the Second Aliya. But there is no way to know how many subscribed to Zionist ideology and of those, what percentage went to Palestine. Also, even if only 2.5% of Zionists went to Palestine, that doesn't mean that the ones who did go were NOT motived to a large extent by Zionism. I don't think any of this is more than speculation and move for the section to be removed unless a valid source can be cited to back it up. MosheEmes (talk) 01:41, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

I second MosheEmes's criticism (although I don't agree with his argument either, but that's moot). The argument in this section of the article appears illogical and is not attributed to any source. The question addressed in this section is:

• Did Zionism play a major role in the Second Aliyah? I.e. was Zionism a major motivation for those immigrants from Eastern Europe who chose to go to Palestine?

The evidence in the article addresses the question:

• Did Zionism play a major role in the mass exodus of Jews from Russia and Eastern Europe in the early 20th century?

The evidence in the article - that most of these immigrants chose the USA or other countries offering greater economic opportunity and less discrimination - suggests that Zionism played a small role in this exodus over all. But it doesn't answer what role it played for that small subset of immigrants who, against their economic best interests, chose to go to Palestine? There are other possible explanations for this decision (immigrants leaving Russia were misinformed about conditions in Palestine, the journey was easier, etc), but the article supports none of these. 123forman (talk) 17:07, 4 July 2014 (GMT)

I'm glad others noticed the inconsistency of this paragraph. Indeed, if anything the evidence provided in this section supports the idea that Zionism did play a role, since it points out that escape from poverty or persecution would not have been achieved by immigration to Palestine. I propose deleting the section and moving the background information provided there and in the introduction into a "Background" section. Hydroargenium (talk) 16:01, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Restructured to resolve this problem and generally increase clarity. Hydroargenium (talk) 16:30, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Too much ultra-Westernized POV in this restructuring.GreyShark (dibra) 14:45, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

This section is illogical, contains grammatical errors and appears to be an example of someone trying to push a personal view. The article would be best served if the sections was deleted entirely. Alan3278 (talk) 11:55, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

What you removed, apart from the short final paragraph, is supported by three academic sources written by respected experts. If it isn't a good reflection of the sources or is not written well, you should study the sources and improve the text according to what they say. It doesn't matter in the least whether you agree with it or consider it illogical. The role of Zionism in the second aliyah is now not mentioned at all, despite this obviously being a very important question. Zero^talk 03:51, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

I do not have access to the sources you quote but I have seen articles by one of the experts, Gur Alroey, and what he writes is much more nuanced than the view expressed in this section. The assertion that 'the role of Zionism in the second Aliyah is now not mentioned at all' is simply untrue. 86.26.64.65 (talk) 12:15, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

You shouldn't edit on the basis of recollections. Also, in your version Zionism is not mentioned at all in the body of the article. Zero^talk 12:31, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

New Zionism section

A new section on Zionism was added, sourced to a paper which I'd like to get my hands on. Is this available anywhere online somewhere?

Currently the section repeats the same idea a few times, so it can be trimmed significantly, but I don't have access to the source. It also contradicts itself: it says that Zionism was not a major factor in the immigration to the Land of Israel, but at the same time people who did immigrate suffered economic hardships and persecution in Israel as well. It should probably read that Zionism was not a major factor in emigration from Eastern Europe, but the people who did choose to emigrate to Israel were Zionists—but again, I don't have access to the source and don't know exactly what it says on the subject.

—Ynhockey ^(Talk) 13:03, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

One of them is here and the other is at your hotmail address. Zero^talk 13:44, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

Zionism section still does not make sense

I have recently updated the two citations which reference Gur Alroey articles in the "Wider immigration and Zionism" section, including links to both if anyone would like to read those (one is available for free, the other is accessible on JSTOR via the Wikipedia library). — As far as I can tell, while Alroey does bring up many other factors that were also at play, nothing in either of these articles seems to support the claim that Zionism did NOT play a "major role" in this period of Jewish immigration. Additionally, whether or not this wave of immigration can be seen as, specifically, a successful "realization of the Zionist movement" doesn't have any bearing on whether Zionist ideas were, in whole or in part, a influence on the people who moved there - nor does the amount of hardship they faced when they arrived. In fact, the fact that Jewish immigrants to the region DID experience so much hardship would seem to lend itself to the idea that they must have been especially committed to settling in that area specifically, to the exclusion of any other (perhaps for some kind of ideological reason...?) This section begins by disputing the idea that Zionism was much of an influence on immigration during this period at all, but all of the following points seem to instead be supporting the argument that it was simply not successful manifestation of the Zionist project. These are two different things, and reading this section as written just leaves me incredibly confused about what point is trying to be made. Not sure what to do about this. Gravelove (talk) 22:55, 23 April 2026 (UTC)