Talk:Saeed Borji

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Important point

@Keironoshea: The content of this article was not generated by AI; however, I used AI to improve the grammar (AI Grammar Checker). The information presented is reliable and can be verified. This biography was compiled from Persian sources, all of which are reputable news agencies. There are no false references in this article. I have made every effort to ensure the article is accurate and presents the information impartially. It seems you have quickly overlooked the details and effort invested in this article and made a one-sided judgment. Are you hastily tagging the article using your tools? This biography cannot be false because it is based on trustworthy Persian sources. I reiterate, you can verify this. If any part of this article is unrelated to the cited references, I will withdraw my claim and accept your tag. PouDer3 (talk) 16:02, 2 September 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining your process. I'm not questioning whether your Persian sources are reliable - that's not the issue here.

My concern is with the "Summary Profile" section specifically.

There's a lot of very detailed personal information there (like "She was a painter" about his wife, comprehensive organisational roles, specific technical details) all presented in these identical table formats.

When I look at biographical articles on Wikipedia, they don't usually have this kind of systematic structure with all these repeated "bulleted list" templates. What I'd find helpful is if you could point me to where exactly in your cited sources these specific details come from. For instance, which source mentions that his wife was a painter? Where do the detailed organisational roles come from?

I'm not trying to be difficult here, but Wikipedia requires that we can trace every claim back to the sources provided. The formatting itself is also quite unusual for a Wikipedia biography.

Most biographical articles use standard prose rather than these multiple identical tables.

This kind of highly systematic organisation often raises questions about how the content was compiled. I'm not making hasty judgements - I'm just asking you to help verify that these specific details are actually in your sources. If they are, then we can sort this out easily.

Could you help me understand where in your Persian sources I'd find these particular claims? BW Keironoshea (talk) 16:08, 2 September 2025 (UTC)

@Keironoshea: Dear Keironoshea,

♦ First, I am glad to have a conversation with you.

♦ These are my responses regarding the matter:

■ Every part of those tables is referenced in the article text. The fact that she was a painter is also mentioned in many Iranian websites. I am referring to the understanding of an innocent person who was assassinated, and I have included all relevant information from the sources. For example, it is stated here that Saeed Borji's wife was a painter who was killed along with her husband in the Israeli attack (there were other references as well. Please use Google Translate Persian<->English, and you will see that she was an innocent painter who was killed in her home at 3:30 AM while she was asleep, by a missile that destroyed Borji's flat and his neighbors' flats as well). Their children were also killed, and there is a photo of them; however, since there was no reliable reference for it, I did not include it. In short, this is the summary: the information for the entire article is presented in a concise layout. If you prefer, I can add a reference for each row of the tables or delete section "Summary Profile" altogether. This is a two-way exchange. After that, please feel free to remove the tags from the article.

■ The detailed organizational roles are mentioned here and here.

▶ Do you want these multiple identical tables to be deleted? I'm ready to proceed. Just say the word. I want peace. PouDer3 (talk) 17:50, 2 September 2025 (UTC)

@PouDer3: Thank you for providing the additional context and sources. I've now had a chance to examine the sahandsazansepanta.ir source you referenced more closely.

I am using machine assisted translation (Google Translate), so it might be an error on my side, but I can see that this website belongs to Sahand Sazan Sepanta, which is an Iranian construction and civil engineering company established in 2013, based in Shiraz. While the company website may contain the information you've referenced about Saeed Borji, we need to consider whether a construction company's blog section constitutes a reliable source for biographical claims about a nuclear scientist.

For Wikipedia's biographical content standards, we typically prefer established news organisations, academic publications, official government sources, or recognised biographical references

A construction company's website, whilst it may contain accurate information, doesn't necessarily meet the standard for reliable sources on biographical matters, particularly for someone of apparent significance.

Could you point to any of the "reputable news agencies" you mentioned earlier that would corroborate these details? The Shahrara News source you provided appears more appropriate, but I'd be interested to see if there are additional mainstream Persian news sources that cover this individual's biography.

This isn't to dismiss the information, but rather to ensure we're meeting Wikipedia's verification standards for biographical content. Keironoshea (talk) 18:07, 2 September 2025 (UTC)

@Keironoshea: "Sahand Sazan Sepanta" is a subsidiary of Saeed Borji's companies, and that is the member profile page. This means the company was owned by Borji, and the website was likely operated under his direction. Therefore, you can say that this information was provided directly by Saeed Borji himself. You did not consider this point! I expected you to demonstrate more consistency; otherwise, you would see my words here (EN), here (EN), here, here (EN), here (EN), here (EN), here (EN), here (EN), here (EN), here (EN), here (EN), here (EN), here (EN), here (IT), here (FA), here (FA), here (FA), here (FA), here (FA), here (FA), here (FA), here (FA), and here (FA). Again, there are other references too.

I attempted to advance the article in accordance with Wikipedia standards, as you suggested. However, I made a slight modification by including tables in the article. I mentioned that, if you prefer, I can provide references for each table row individually or remove the entire section. Under what circumstances would you consider removing the tag from the article? PouDer3 (talk) 08:15, 3 September 2025 (UTC)

@PouDer3: I've spent some time this morning working on the article to address the concerns I raised earlier. I hope you don't mind that I've made some substantial revisions - I thought it might be helpful to show what I meant rather than just pointing out the issues.

The main changes I've made include removing the entire "Summary Profile" section with all those tables, since they really didn't fit with standard Wikipedia biographical formatting. I've also eliminated references to the Sahand Sazan Sepanta construction company website, as we discussed the reliability concerns there.

I've tried to preserve all the substantive information you researched, but presented it in more conventional biographical prose rather than those systematic bullet-pointed lists. I've also worked on the neutrality by using more careful attribution ("reportedly", "allegedly") and presenting different perspectives where claims are contested.

One thing I should mention - I've also removed most uses of the word "martyr" from the main article text. Whilst I understand this is how Iranian sources refer to Borji, Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy means we should avoid religiously or politically loaded terminology in the encyclopaedic voice. The word "martyr" carries specific religious connotations and implies a value judgement about his death. It's fine to keep it in source titles where we're directly translating, but in our own prose we should use more neutral terms like "killed" or "assassinated."

The extensive sourcing you provided from established Persian and English news agencies is still there - it's just presented in a more standard way now. I think this addresses the formatting and sourcing concerns whilst keeping the comprehensive research you've done.

I hope this approach works for you. If there's anything important I've inadvertently removed or changed in a way you're not happy with, please let me know and we can discuss it. The goal was to keep your good research whilst making it fit Wikipedia's standards better.

BW

Keironoshea (talk) 08:51, 3 September 2025 (UTC)

@Keironoshea: Oh, I'm ashamed that you went to such trouble. I truly appreciate and thank you for your efforts on the article.

I have reviewed the revisions, and I can see that you worked very hard. I am genuinely grateful. A schema of the standard Wikipedia biography format took shape in my mind. I owe that to you. I have learned a lot from you and witnessed your dedication.

I wish you the best of Journeys.

ণবఇఇఇ PouDer3 (talk) 09:27, 3 September 2025 (UTC)