Talk:Riding aids
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Requested move 12 October 2017
[edit]- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: No move. We have consensus that the article considers riding aids as a "group of distinct entities". Cúchullain t/c 14:28, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
Riding aids → Riding aid – per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (plurals). Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 09:48, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
- Support per nom. Dicklyon (talk) 05:07, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose. This falls into exception #2 of WP:PLURAL, "Articles on groups of distinct entities that are nevertheless often considered together (preceded almost invariably by the word "the") …" – the aids are treated as a collective group, and are applied in combination rather than individually. In riding, they are normally known as "the aids" (see e.g., Sylvia Loch (2013), The Balanced Horse: The Aids by Feel, Not Force. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 20:12, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose: Per JLAN and general use. I also think that exception #3 also applies (" one is much more likely to mention the Bernoulli numbers or Arabic numerals than a particular Bernoulli number or Arabic numeral.") So does exception #5, as this is a group used as a system. ("Although one may speak of the second polar coordinate of a point, the article is on the system of coordinates.") Exception #6 "actually distinguish among multiple distinct instances of related items" also works. This is technical language within the equestrian world. The aids include the legs, hands, weight, and voice, and they are often (usually) used together. Google it with and without the plural, far more often used as a plural. Here is a glossary source, and some other examples: , . While singular use exists when the nuance is singular (e.g. "use of the seat (weight) aid" more often simply "use of the seat"), plural titling clearly is appropriate here. Montanabw(talk) 05:34, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose per JLAN. — Amakuru (talk) 23:28, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Merge proposal
[edit]- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
- The result of this discussion was to merge-and-redirect. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 17:38, 25 May 2025 (UTC)
User:Bearian proposed a merge (Riding aids → Neck rein), but did not provide any discussion. There could be reasonable arguments to merge Neck rein into Riding aids (but not the other way around) so I have reversed the merge tags. Please discuss. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 15:02, 7 May 2025 (UTC)
- Either way is fine. Bearian (talk) 16:29, 7 May 2025 (UTC)
Done, due to no opposition expressed, and zero citations in the Neck rein article. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 17:38, 25 May 2025 (UTC)
Conflicting definitions of natural/artificial
[edit]I wanted to start a discussion about including some terminology about the definition by some authors of bits as an artificial aid. Grorp reverted my edit on Glossary of equestrian terms, and I wondered why, since I had been taught that any mechanical gadget was considered an artificial aid. Grorp said that the post contradicted the citation for that page, the text of this page, and this page's citations.
It should be noted that this page cites Hunter Seat Equitation by George Morris, who says "In essence, the artificial aids are accents; they enforce and enlarge the natural aids. Sticks, spurs, martingales, bits and auxiliary reins are good examples of what is meant by artificial aids." [emphasis mine] Harold Black's Manual of Horsemanship, 1980: "Artificial aids include reins, spur, crop, martingale or any other mechanical gadget." Cheryl Kimball's "The Everything Horseback Riding Book" 2005: "The most common artificial aid is the bit."
Because most sources use the stricter definition where bits are considered natural aids, I would propose leaving the glossary of horseman's terms as it stands now, since it refers here. I would suggest modifying the first part of this page's artificial aids section:
"This would The most widely accepted definitions include whips, spurs, and supplementary equipment (beyond the basic bridle, bit and saddle) such as martingales or training rein systems.,[1]: 26 although some authors include reins and bits as well. [2]: 23 Artificial aids can be used to reinforce the natural aids, or to discipline the horse." I think this should suffice for references, since the Morris citation is already used on the page. Thanks, Getwood (talk) 05:22, 9 February 2026 (UTC)
- From the Belknap and Price equestrian dictionaries... "artificial aids" don't mention bits, which would be the very first example given if they meant it to be included. But no, they mention spurs and whips. If bits would be included as an artificial aid, then so too would reins, bridles, and saddles.
- artificial aid: The spur or the whip, used to reinforce the natural aids (leg, hands, seat, and voice).[3]: 11
- artificial aid: Any means other than natural aids (q.v.) by which the rider communicates instruction to the horse including the use of spurs (q.v.), whip (q.v.), martingale (q.v.), and/or other gadgets.[1]: 26
- natural aids: Any means by which the rider uses his own physical attributes to communicate instruction to the horse; include legs, hands, and the influence of the body, seat, and voice; differ from artificial aids (q.v.).[1]: 332
- natural aids: The rider's legs, hands (via the reins), seat, and voice.[3]: 143
- In both Belknap and Price (as with other widely read and reliable sources such as FEI, Pony Club, BHS, and USDF books and publications), bits are defined as tack/equipment, not aids (artificial or otherwise). Just because a few outliers mention bits as artificial aids doesn't mean we should mention it in Wikipedia (per WP:WEIGHT).
- Morris goes on to elaborate on what he meant by "bits": "A wide variety of special bits and auxilliary reins are also used to combat head and mouth problems, each problem necessitating a different correction."[2]: 24 Whereas Morris mentions "The natural aids are the rider's hands, legs, weight, and voice."[2]: 23 Well, I question you, how are the "hands" an aid at all except through the reins to a bit or hackamore, etc. I posit that his adding 'bit' to the artificial aids is meant to mean "special bits", as he mentions on the following page. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 07:35, 9 February 2026 (UTC)
References
- 1 2 3 Belknap, Maria (2004). The Allen Equine Dictionary (revised 2004 ed.). London: J.A.Allen & Co Ltd. ISBN 085131872X. OL 11598042M.
- 1 2 3 Morris, George H. (1979). Hunter Seat Equitation. New York: Doubleday & Company. ISBN 0-385-15253-1. LCCN 79-7071. OL 58714088M.
- 1 2 Price, Steven D.; Shiers, Jessie (2007). The Lyons Press Horseman's Dictionary (Revised ed.). Guilford, CT: Lyons Press. ISBN 978-1-59921-036-0. OL 8901304M.