Talk:Renaud II de Pons

Rainaut de Pons

I am having some trouble sorting out the Renauds/Rainauts of Pons. There were a contemporary uncle and nephew (Renaud II) both of this name. I am still reading Chabaneau, but he says it was the senior (d. c. 1228) who was seneschal of Gascony and not the junior (d. 1252). Chambers, "Two Troubadour Lyrics", has the nephew as the troubadour, though. Srnec (talk) 18:55, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

@Srnec: - Sorry I appear to have reversed the last two numbers of his death. Seeing as his son Geffroy who died in 1247 was lord of Pons, then this would be the correct date 1225. Regards Newm30 (talk) 22:34, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

@Srnec: - I have reviewed Calendar of Documents, Relating to Ireland: 1171-1251 and in the index it has Renaud "the elder", Renaud and Renaud "the younger", now I am confused. Hope you can advise of who was seneschal and how they fit in and whether this Renaud apparently died on Crusade in 1252 or died in c.1225. Regards Newm30 (talk) 23:28, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

@Newm30: So according to the Chabaneau source I added and Courcelles, Histoire généalogique et héraldique des pairs de France, vol. 4, the seneschal of Gascony was not Renaud II de Pons, that is, the second lord of Pons named Renaud. The seneschal was his uncle, also Renaud de Pons, but not lord of Pons, rather the younger brother of Renaud II's father, Geoffroi III. They were contemporaries and distinguished themselves in documents as senior (uncle) and iunior (nephew). Renaud the elder is last heard of in 1228 and probably died shortly thereafter. Renaud II died in 1252 on crusade (his second!). It's pretty confusing, however. Chabaneau cannot decide which one wrote the poems attributed to Rainaut de Pons. I will try to work on this. Srnec (talk) 00:55, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

@Srnec: - Thanks, I have had a hard time with some genealogical tables in French texts (need Google translate) which sometimes do not align with numberings of Lord of Pons, but seem to conflate them with other family members. I have found a text and Table on Page 61 which is interesting too. Do you recommend creation of article Renaud de Pons, Seneschal of Gascony or is there another name you think we should call it? Regards Newm30 (talk) 01:24, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

@Newm30: So we now have four articles: this one on the second lord of Pons named Renaud, a new one at the title you suggested about his uncle the seneschal, the one about the troubadour who could be either of the first two and a disambiguation page since there are many other Renauds de Pons. I think it is pretty much cleared up, although the sources I'm (we're) relying on are old. Srnec (talk) 05:05, 28 October 2018 (UTC)