Talk:Prince Thagara

Article name

Im uncertain about the most appropriate way to set the article titles for Burmese princes and princesses from the Konbaung dynasty. I don't think the current title is the best option, as there were multiple peerage titles for Thagara across different reigns of the dynasty. The earlier title was a direct translation of the Burmese term Thagara Mintha, similar to Kanaung Mintha. In Burmese, Mintha simply means “prince.” So I used the name "Thagara Prince" in English.

If the title holder had a personal name, the format could be Name + princedom, for example, Maung Ba, Prince of Tabe or Maung Ba, Prince Tabe. However, if no personal name is available, I am not sure what the standard pattern should be. If the default style is to use the format “Prince Thagara” (as in the current article), then we would need to make similar changes to dozens of articles, such as Taingda Princess.

That is why I have started this discussion about establishing a consistent naming style for articles on Burmese princes. I would also like to ping Burmese editors who are knowledgeable in Burmese history to share their input. Hteiktinhein (talk) 16:34, 29 September 2025 (UTC)

@EmeraldRange @Hintha @Hybernator pls share your opinion. Also ping to @Mccapra:. Hteiktinhein (talk) 16:35, 29 September 2025 (UTC)

The way I interpret WP:NCROY for Burmese royalty and nobility is that, "Mintha" is an integral/substantive part of the name. Otherwise, Kanaung or Mindon are just towns and unnecessary disambiguation. Wikipedia does not give privilege to titles, for instance, we use Hteik Su Phaya Gyi and Anawrahta not Princess Hteik Su Phaya Gyi and King Anawrahta. For Kanaung Mintha and Mindon Min as examples, the titles are used because it's part of the common way to refer to these individual. Since, Mindon Min being almost always being called Mindon Min in english rather than "King Mindon", I also prefer the consisency of keeping the Burmese terms for more minor royals.

Because of this it should default to Thagara Mintha. In my opinion just calling him "Thagara" is confusing. For Maung Ba, Prince of Tabe, that would be only if there is a need to disambiguate from, say, Maung Ba (footballer). Even in those cases I think it's more relevant to say "Ba of Tabe" or "Maung Ba (prince)" following the example of Soe Win (prince) and Thado Minsaw of Ava. EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 17:17, 29 September 2025 (UTC)

Thanks @EmeraldRange, your option makes sense. One issue, however, is that English sources mostly mention the name as “Thagara Prince” or “Prince Thagara,” and it’s rare to see “Thagara Mintha” used in English. Would it still be acceptable to use? I’ve noticed that in many name-change discussions, the outcome often depends on how names are presented in English sources.

My idea for using forms like “Maung Ba, Prince of Tabe” is based on the naming style for Western royals, such as Georgiana Cavendish, Duchess of Devonshire or Albert II, Prince of Monaco. User:Htanaungg has also applied this approach in his articles, for example Prince Naga, Prince of Pyinzi and Prince Pu, Prince of Pyinzi. Hteiktinhein (talk) 17:52, 29 September 2025 (UTC)

Yeah I think wikipedia policies, generally prioritise what the sources typically call him over internal consistency. So if the sources are saying "Thagara Prince" rather than Thagara Mintha I think the current title Prince Thagara is the correct choice.

For the Maung Ba, Prince of Tabe, thanks for bringing my attention to the Burmese examples. Using Soe Win (prince) as an example was a poor choice given that he doesn't have a proper "princedom" as a pretender. The official WP:NCROY policy is for the form "Ba of Tabe" to be used to disambiguate royals/nobles with the same style (e.g. Thado Minsaw) with the substantive form "Ba, Prince of Tabe" being mostly used for those that hold a specific noble non-sovereign title (e.g. William, Prince of Wales). I think the appanage of Pyinzi functions similarly enough so those articles should be Naga, Prince of Pyinzi and Pu, Prince of Pyinzi. EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 19:50, 29 September 2025 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. You can locate your hook here. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Dclemens1971 talk 19:44, 19 November 2025 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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• ... that Prince Thagara was so handsome that the future Queen Supayalat disguised herself as a man just to get a glimpse of him? Source: Gilberti, Christian (1 October 2019). "The Last Days of Queen Supayalat". MYANMORE.
  • ALT1: ... that Prince Thagara was once considered for the throne of Burma but was passed over for Prince Thibaw? Source: "ဆယ့်နှစ်ရာသီ ရွှေဖလားထဲက မဲနှစ်မဲကို ပြန်ရေတွက်ခြင်း" [Recounting two ballots from the golden urn of the twelve seasons]. Eleven Media Group Co., Ltd (in Burmese).
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Carme Travesset

Created by Hteiktinhein (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 6 past nominations.

Hteiktinhein (talk) 17:49, 2 October 2025 (UTC).

• @Hteiktinhein: I will close this in 24 hours if I don't see a QPQ.--Launchballer 15:11, 5 October 2025 (UTC)
  • @Launchballer: done. Hteiktinhein (talk) 19:35, 5 October 2025 (UTC)
• Full review still needed; QPQ is linked above. Hteiktinhein (talk) 05:13, 3 November 2025 (UTC)

Length and history verified. Reference verified for main hook, although I would like some assurance (which I can't find on the site) that Myanmore is a reliable source ... is it subject to editorial oversight, as it seems like it might be. But sites like this are also known to thrive by just publishing whatever their freelancers submit, and I want to be sure about this, because ideally this sort of information is most trustworthy coming from, say, a scholarly historic source, rather than an English-language news site aimed at tourists (as Myanmore seems to be). All the same, I recognize that this is Myanmar, and that kind of source, even in Burmese, if it exists, may be hard to run down even offline, and English-language sources for something like this are the proverbial hen's teeth. But if the nominator could point me to something that would cast further light on the reliability of Myanmore, that would be helpful.

As for ALT1, I will give it the reference on GF, since I can't read Burmese and it is one of the few languages my browser can't attempt to translate. However, it's frankly a dull hook ... as recent events have demonstrated, people in the line of succession for monarchies get, and have gotten, bumped out of them for various reasons for a very long time. Unless there's something exceptional or unusual about why here—and nothing currently in the article supports that possibility—we can discard this hook. Daniel Case (talk) 20:36, 17 November 2025 (UTC)

Hello @Daniel Case:....Thanks for reviewing this. Sureeee If you are not satisfied with the modern source, here is နန်းကျဘုရင် 'Downfall King', a Burmese translation of The King in Exile by respected historians. You can easily verify on page 18 the quote:

“ဆယ်ကျော်သက်အရွယ်သို့ရောက်ရှိလာချိန်တွင် စုဖုရာလတ်က အမျိုးသားတစ်ဦးအဖြစ် ဝတ်စားဆင်ယင်ပြီး၊ အမျိုးသားများသာရှိသော မြောက်ဥယျာဉ်တော် သို့ သွားလေ့ရှိသည်။ မြောက်ဥယျာဉ်တော်မှာ အမျိုးသားများအတွက် သီးသန့် သတ်မှတ်ထားသောနေရာဖြစ်ပြီး ဆန့်ကျင်ဘက်လိင်များ မဝင်ရောက်ရန် ကန့်သတ်ထားသည့် နယ်မြေ ဖြစ်သည်။ စုဖုရာလတ်က သူမ စိတ်ဝင်စားသော အစ်ကိုတော် ဖြစ်သည့် သာဂရမင်စာကို သွားရောက်ရှာဖွေခြင်း ဖြစ်သည်။”

And Myanmore is not just a tourist guide, it is a major English-language magazine based in the former capital, Yangon. In Myanmar, English-language publications are extremely rare, and Myanmore is one of the few. It is operated through Issuu. Before criticizing Myanmar media, you should understand the media situation in my poor country. Anyway, if you don't want to use Myanmore, the historical source above is enough. Hteiktinhein (talk) 04:59, 18 November 2025 (UTC)

I wasn't criticizing Myanmore; I didn't know there was an article about it since it wasn't linked from the cited source.

I have accepted ALT1 on good faith, as we usually do with sources in languages we can neither understand nor have translated. But that was for a different fact. I like ALT0 more, and I will see what I can find out about Myanmore so I can be OK with it as a source. Daniel Case (talk) 05:04, 18 November 2025 (UTC)

For ALT1, I understand it may feel a bit boring. But how about ALT1a: … that Prince Thagara was a candidate for the Burmese throne but was not selected after his rival, Prince Thibaw, secured two votes from a golden bowl?

This fact is actually quite interesting because, unlike the usual succession traditions in Southeast Asian monarchies where the heir is chosen by order of seniority...the heir in this case was chosen by ministers voting with slips placed in a golden bowl under the direction of the Queen Dowager. That is not a normal practice. However, I really like ALT0 as you suggested, and I would prefer to use that for the Main Page of Wikipedia, if you approve this nomination. If you have any questions, I’m happy to answer them. Thank you so much. Hteiktinhein (talk) 05:20, 18 November 2025 (UTC)

@Daniel Case: If everything looks okay and you have no further questions, could you please kindly change it to the {{approve}} logo and let it proceed? Thank you for your input.Hteiktinhein (talk) 05:43, 18 November 2025 (UTC)

I have looked through enough online about Myanmore to satisfy myself that it does have some editorial oversight. I wish their "About" page was clearer about this, but it does seem that they have an actual editorial staff based on social media. Daniel Case (talk) 20:10, 18 November 2025 (UTC)