Talk:Price equation

Hard to digest

We are two computers science profs working through this at the moment. We totally got stuck. The thing we did not understand is that z_i is a function of the underlying w_i. We found in other places the example that z_i could contain things like height while w_i is simply n_i/n_i'. A simple explanation of that factor of how the two relate would have made things much easier for us. Also, clarifying that z and z_i are both one dimensional would also help. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Koerding (talk • contribs) 14:16, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Planning on making some changes

I'm planning on doing some reorganizing to make this page more clear. Chiefly I'd like to move some of the worked examples to a new page entitles "Price equation examples", and simplify and highlight the application to altruism. My goal is to make it shorter and improve clarity without removing content. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PaulGNelson (talk • contribs) 20:27, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

external link in criticism?

It lists "A tutorial can be found at http://www.evolutionandgames.com/price." It seems unusual by wikipedia standards to have an external link like this in the body of the article. Can someone more familiar with the criticisms bring them into the text of the article (provided they are sourced) and etiehr remove the link or bring it to the bottom of the page? Otherwise, I can just remove it.

192.91.171.42 (talk) 17:18, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Merit vs. Altruism

Is there any way to modify the Price equations specifically to address an attitude of "Meritocracy" rather than "Altruism"? I would think that the corresponding fitness functions would rise substantially faster. I also wonder if anyone has done work that might establish how quickly any such group might acquire converts or new members from a larger population not having the same commitments and beliefs? Does anyone know? -- TheLastWordSword (talk) 15:57, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Typos

Could somebody who knows how this works please proof and fix the formal math. For instance the definition of E(x_i) is ill-formed - i is bound on the right but not on the left. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:75:F20:C75:857A:1354:F557:7EF2 (talk) 09:23, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Proof written on a postage stamp.

"Proof of the Price equation"

Boy is this section long and meandering, for what it accomplishes. Is there a pre-agreed upper limit on the mathematical sophistication of people involved with this kind of study? Perhaps when their level gets too high they are simply removed from that population to another one.

That said, the author deserves credit for actually defining the terms of the equation. It is impossible to tell what is going on from the fuzzy language earlier in the paper until you get to this long, circuitous, wordy, but complete proof.

Regarding the earlier discussion about tautologies, all math statements are tautologies. Some are just more difficult to see than others. The Price equation is a special kind of tautology -- it should really be called Price's identity. 178.39.122.125 (talk) 17:39, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

Today, some scientists will tell you that the Price equation is empty

Amusingly, the above claim is made in the following article:

http://mosaicscience.com/story/George-Price-altruism-equation

Today, some scientists will tell you that the Price equation is empty. It is like a footballer who, when asked how their team will win the next match, says they will score more goals than the other team. By trying to explain the game at its most fundamental level, say the critics, the equation explains and predicts nothing about why certain traits should increase or decrease fitness.

But it doesn't stop there:

For its supporters, the Price equation is the closest thing biology has to E=mc^2.

!!!!

178.39.122.125 (talk) 07:16, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

Rating

I've put the rating of the page back down to "start" for the moment due to the lack of inline citations. T.Shafee(Evo&Evo)^talk 11:46, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Still needs work

In a Wikipedia article, one should attempt to hold the nonexpert/layperson/beginner by the hand, even if this results in lack of elegance, concision or accuracy. In the present case, I feel that some of the terms used could be better explained right from the beginning, though I note that the meaning of the terms used does become clearer if one works through the "proof" section. To starts with, it should be made clear that here a "trait" is used in the sense of a measurable feature of an individual organism, such as height. It should then be made clear that the population's members vary in that trait, and that part of the trait values are heritable. It would also help to give a concrete (real, from the field literature) example right at the beginning. Paulhummerman (talk) 15:43, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

Price equation examples

Price equation examples seems like decent content (at a skim) that's more suited to a textbook than an encyclopedia. I'm thinking about redirecting that page back to here. I just wanted to note it here so folks with objections can voice them or undo the redirect, and/or folks maintaining this page can merge any useful material into this page. Ajpolino (talk) 17:36, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Making the article more digestible for biologists

I'm a theoretical biologist and I'm hoping to take some time to make the article more accessible. I'm new to editing wikipedia pages, so i'm a bit nervous about changing most of the math right away, but I'll note a few changes that would help, which i'll try to make when i get a chance:

-More graphical representations like in:

Kerr, Benjamin, and Peter Godfrey-Smith. "Generalization of the Price equation for evolutionary change." Evolution 63.2 (2009): 531-536.

-More empirical examples like:

Collins, Sinéad, and Andy Gardner. "Integrating physiological, ecological and evolutionary change: a Price equation approach." Ecology letters 12.8 (2009): 744-757.

Rankin, Brian D., et al. "The extended Price equation quantifies species selection on mammalian body size across the Palaeocene/Eocene Thermal Maximum." Proceedings of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences 282.1812 (2015): 20151097.

-Unified notation, in some sections traits are given by z, in others by x

Links to more recent papers like:

Lion, Sébastien. "Theoretical approaches in evolutionary ecology: environmental feedback as a unifying perspective." The American Naturalist 191.1 (2018): 21-44.

Bhat, Ananda Shikhara, and Vishwesha Guttal. "Eco-evolutionary dynamics for finite populations and the noise-induced reversal of selection." The American Naturalist 205.1 (2025): 1-19. DrGodsoe (talk) 04:02, 13 November 2025 (UTC)