Talk:Pinniped

why isn't this article just called seals

It creates confusion using an esoteric term instead of the word in common usage and comes across as pretentious and prescriptive language rather than inclusivity in language.

You might as well latinise every animal article name if you are going to take the logic that there is something wrong with the vernacular. 81.106.58.180 (talk) 09:26, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

It's explained in a note to the very first sentence of the article: "This term typically excludes the walrus in everyday English. In science, it is also sometimes restricted to the "true" seals of the family Phocidae. This article uses it for all pinnipeds." Can't say what's the best solution. FunkMonk (talk) 09:32, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

The best solution is to have an article on seals titled "Seal". It's really not that hard. 61.69.236.63 (talk) 10:08, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

This was already discussed. "Pinniped" is unique to the animal. "Seal" can refer to Seal (emblem) and Seal (mechanical). LittleJerry (talk) 21:41, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Effect of climate change on seal populations

The article so far mentions climate change and its effects on seals only in passing. My proposal is to move a text block that is currently at effects of climate change on oceans to this article and then to leave only a short sentence at the other location, then link across. Here is the paragraph that I am proposing to move:

Seals are another marine mammal that are susceptible to climate change. Much like polar bears, seals have evolved to rely on sea ice. They use the ice platforms for breeding and raising young seal pups. In 2010 and 2011, sea ice in the Northwest Atlantic was at or near an all-time low and harp seals that bred on thin ice saw increased death rates. If ice becomes non-existent in their normal range, harp seals will have to shift more north to find suitable ice. In the Hudson Bay, Canada, the body conditions of ringed seals were observed from 2003-2013. Aerial surveys showed a decline in ringed seal density, with the lowest occurrence of seals in 2013. The lower ice coverage means more open water swimming for the ringed seals, which caused higher stress (cortisol) rates. Low ovulation rate, low pregnancy rate, fewer pups in the Inuit harvest, and observations of sick seals was also seen over the course of the study. Antarctic fur seals in South Georgia saw extreme reductions over a 20-year study, during which scientists measured increased sea surface temperature anomalies. This cause was mostly due to reductions in Antarctic krill that forms the base of the trophic web, which eventually affected the fur seal breeding cycle.

Note this paragraph was added by a new user (User:Crowley11) in April this year in this edit. From superficial reading it seems quite OK, with suitable refs, but I am not an expert on seals. Do you agree that it can be moved into this article? If not, is there a sub-article in the group of seal articles where it would fit better? EMsmile (talk) 09:44, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

P.S. I've just left a similar comment on the talk page of dolphins as there is also a text block that should be moved to there, in my opinion. - Compare also with polar bear#Climate change which already has good content about climate change (not surprisingly, as polar bears are often "the face" of climate change...) EMsmile (talk) 10:05, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

I've now moved content to here from effects of climate change on oceans as per my talk page suggestion above. Perhaps it's too detailed for this kind of high level article? Shorten and then move content to articles on specific species of seals? Is it OK if I leave this up to the seal experts / people watching this article? EMsmile (talk) 09:18, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

I removed it. The effects of climate change are mentioned in the conservation section and it doesn't belong in "Distribution and habitat". Also the sources are not formated correctly. You're free to add a couple more sentences but this article is big enough. LittleJerry (talk) 01:25, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Well, so far you have exactly one mention of climate change in the article in this sentence under "conservation": Species that live in polar habitats are vulnerable to the effects of climate change, particularly declines in sea ice. I don't think that is enough and I don't think it's a "conservation" issue either because what is there to conserve if the ice is melting? It is indeed a habitat issue (or a "threats" issue) - which you can see already from the title of the publication that was cited: "Can ice breeding seals adapt to habitat loss in a time of climate change?". And yes, the formatting of the references was poor. I had overlooked that but it was easy to fix with the automatic cite generator from the DOI number. I've made that correction now for the refs at effects of climate change on oceans. I am also happy to see that the sub-article on Ringed seal has a detailed section on climate change issues: Ringed seal#Climate change. I have now linked to it from effects of climate change on oceans. The article on Harp seal has nothing on climate change though. So it seems to be very much hit and miss! I think all those seal articles that deal with seal species that live (or breed) on sea ice ought to have something about their disappearing habitat. And the issue should also be addressed in condensed from (2-3 sentences) in this article, under habitat or threats, not under conservation. To say that the article is "big enough" is a lame excuse. But yes, the content needs to be in summary form and any further detail needs to be in the respective seal sub-articles. EMsmile (talk) 06:47, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

I added the subsection back. Threats by climate change are a conservation issue and so belong there. I'll leave it to you to cleanup and format the sources. LittleJerry (talk) 12:24, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

OK, good, I'll do that now quickly. EMsmile (talk) 12:30, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

I've made those changes and also shortened it a bit, plus provided a link to the Ringed seal#Climate change section. It would be great if someone could update this section, using more recent information, e.g. from the IPCC Sixth Assessment Report: https://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar6/wg2/ . Although it might require a bit of hunting around. I had a look at the technical summary and didn't see seals mentioned, only polar bears as one iconic example of ice dependent species: "The Arctic is showing increased arrival of species from warmer areas on land and in the sea, with a declining extent of tundra and ice-dependent species, such as the polar bear (high confidence)." (technical summary, p. 45). I don't have time at the moment to dive more deeply into it but will keep my eyes open, or if someone else with an interest in seals has time to look into this further and update the data, that would be great. EMsmile (talk) 12:48, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

References

Range map

Do we have a source for File:Pinniped range.jpg? A455bcd9 (talk) 15:05, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Cultural significance - "not necessary"

@LittleJerry, regarding your revert of my edits, I have to ask what exactly is "nesscessary" for this article, what are the standards? I am aware that the primary focus is on the biology, so I tried to keep the edit minimal, but the animals' cultural role is not to be ignored completely, and pointing the reader to the precise passages in highly influential ancient sources who have been quoted for many centuries afterwards seems worthy of inclusion (Pliny's description was used at least up to the 17th century, from what I've found; and the allegorical meaning based on Homer's description is mentioned in Chevalier-Gheerbrant's Dictionary of Symbols). Would you not agree? — Phazd (talk) 17:28, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

Sure I guess. But I looked up "Odyssey book VI, verse 404", and there is no verse 404 in book 6. Also, Pliny is not mentioned in cite 161, just Homer and Aristotle. Those sentences and the source it cites are about Ancient Greece and Pliny was Roman. The captivity section states "Seals have been kept in captivity since at least Ancient Rome and their trainability was noticed by Pliny the Elder" which makes sense. You could have added the note there. LittleJerry (talk) 18:00, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

My bad, I quoted the wrong book of the Odyssey. Pliny mentioned various other things in the passage I cited (i.e. not just about training them), but considering that it's not mentioned in the citation, as you say, it's probably simpler to add that citation in the article on Mediterranean monk seals (which are the species Pliny was referring to). In this article now I've added the Homer citation, parts where Aristotle describes seals more extensively, and only the part of Pliny that mentions training. — Phazd (talk) 21:54, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Updating Communication Section

Currently there is not a source for the single leopard seal performing ultrasound, and a single test subject is not terribly reliable. I am planning on citing a newer paper about wedell seals' ultrasound communications.

DOI:10.1121/10.0002867 Wolvenblacksmith (talk) 14:49, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Sclera thickness

[T]he sclera is thick enough to withstand the pressures of diving is stated and referenced to a source I cannot access. I can see no obvious reason why the thickness of the screra would "withstand" pressure to a specific degree as the contents of the eye are functionally incompressible to the same extent as most of the rest of the seal, excepting air spaces in the respiratory tract. I would appreciate some clarification if it is available. · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 05:40, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

From first principles, I would say that there is probably some evolutionary merit to preventing deformation of the eye under pressure. The eyeball does deform under pressure, as e.g. shown by distortion of vision humans experience under high acceleration. There is less deformation than in air-filled cavities, but what deformation there is has a much higher impact because it directly affects vision (and being two millimeters off from catching a flounder may mean it gets away). As for explicit sourcing on this: I can't access the source either - seems to have been taken off the IA. Scholar pulls up a quote from a book Fur Seals and Sea Lions stating that A thickened sclera around the eyeball prevents deformity of the eye by pressure variations, but the book itself is gated and I can't see the quote in context. Otherwise I can't find direct references to sclera thickness being a pressure adaptation. There's much more on the same phenomenon in cetaceans, where it appears to be considered an adaptation to abrasion/mechanical impacts instead. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 08:34, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

On page 49 of Riedman: A thick sclera ([author describes what it is]) also forms a protective coating that safeguards the eye against underwater pressure experienced by a seal submerged at great depths. LittleJerry (talk) 00:39, 3 March 2025 (UTC)

Why is the article placed under the scientific name?

Who would ever use the search term pinniped? Why not just call the article seals? ᛒᛚᚮᚴᚴᚼᛆᛁ ᛭ 𝔅𝔩𝔬𝔠𝔨𝔥𝔞𝔧 19:39, 10 January 2026 (UTC)

Scientific names are used for almost (if not every) animal. The term "seals" can refer to multiple things other than Pinnipeds. If you input seal in the search bar you just have to click on Pinnipeds to get to this page. Hope this is helpful. ~2026-14152-50 (talk) 08:55, 5 March 2026 (UTC)